How to lie about history.

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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 18 Jun 2020, 12:01pm

What's that about not learning from your past and as a result repeating it?
When the past is written by the winners,secretly and securely hidden away from view,we'll never learn.
Whether we like it or not the UK has a very dark past,some of it more recent than many people realise or wish to admit and which UK governments don't want us to know.
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 18 Jun 2020, 12:03pm

Mike Sales wrote:
simonineaston wrote:
De Piffle must surely have a good enough education to understand this.
Don't mix up expensive & elitist with good. The education DP received (assuming he was paying attention...) is the very epiteme of elitist, entitled and self-serving. He will have taken from it exactly what he thinks will be most useful. (As indeed we all do, if poss - just some of us have to wring out the best from run-down inner-city primaries and dubious comprehensives...)


I guess you are right. I suppose he was taught the establishment version of history, as if it were the only one.

And is one of those with selective eyesight.
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simonineaston
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby simonineaston » 18 Jun 2020, 12:36pm

Here's a great example - John Bolton's newly published book * is said to make serious claims about Trump and his recent politcal past. Is it:
A the dark mutterings of a sore loser
B the first draft of the latest chapter in the history of US presidents
C part of a conserted attempt by the Republican party to make sure Trump doesn't get a second term...
or D all of the above!?

* I link to the Guardian not because it necessarily relects my opinions but simply because it's one of the few daily-updated news sources that's not behind a paywall. Whether or not folk choose to contribute to the paper's running costs is up to them.
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 18 Jun 2020, 12:44pm

simonineaston wrote:Here's a great example - John Bolton's newly published book * is said to make serious claims about Trump and his recent politcal past. Is it:
A the dark mutterings of a sore loser
B the first draft of the latest chapter in the history of US presidents
C part of a conserted attempt by the Republican party to make sure Trump doesn't get a second term...
or D all of the above!?

* I link to the Guardian not because it necessarily relects my opinions but simply because it's one of the few daily-updated news sources that's not behind a paywall. Whether or not folk choose to contribute to the paper's running costs is up to them.

I read that this morning,nothing would surprise me about Trump,he's despotic maniac with strong connections to the mafia,Putin,Xi and whose aim is one of division and destruction for anyone who doesn't dance to his tune,BoJo is of the same stamp.
These people are evil of that I have no doubt.
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simonineaston
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby simonineaston » 18 Jun 2020, 1:15pm

one of division and destruction for anyone who doesn't dance to his tune,BoJo is of the same stamp.
Those are the consequences of their being in power... but what they want to get out of it personally, I don't know! Unless, they simply have such huge self-belief that they truely think they deserve to hold in their hands the levers of power... which beggers belief, really, 'specially since it's so obvious to anyone with any sense that they're both very wrong!! :shock:
De Peffle's performances at PMQs are getting more & more embarrassing...
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

PH
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby PH » 18 Jun 2020, 1:22pm

We ought to be asking how to be truthful about history. Much of what is told, including by the historical statues, is already a lie.

Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Jun 2020, 1:48pm

Selective history taught in schools? I do hope so. There isn't time to teach everything so things obviously get cut out. What gets cut out isn't the real important question. What is important is what gets left in for history is so far that more has to be left in than can be taught in the time allowed for history.

IMHO history classes at schools should teach the most important periods or events to create adults able to fit into society and to have a good grounding in the critical methods of history. Basically learn a wide age range and above all learn to be critical of sources. Give kids the grounding to fill in the details of aspects of history that interests them later, as adults.

I simply do not believe it is possible to teach history too kids in the detail that would suit all of adult society. I am sure teaching them about the had things done in the name of king and country might be the priority of some on this forum but for others it's more important to teach about the creation of England or the waves of immigration that created our populace or the birth of British institutions like parliament, the UK, etc.

As to hidden documents? Suits the political leanings of some to believe there's a concerted effort by parts of the establishment to hide the truth from the population. Nearer the truth perhaps is that most people simply aren't interested. Others reckon they know it already. I doubt there is anyone with an open mind on history including those researching it. Partly I reckon because political views weigh heavy on history.

Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 18 Jun 2020, 1:52pm

BTW I have no doubt Britain has committed atrocities. Every nation and tribal group has. Our journey is just that, a journey to something hopefully better. I think we're a damn sight further along that journey than a lot of other countries. There's things to be proud of and things to be ashamed of. Do we always have to look to things we're ashamed of? Can we not learn from good and bad equally?

reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 18 Jun 2020, 1:59pm

simonineaston wrote:
one of division and destruction for anyone who doesn't dance to his tune,BoJo is of the same stamp.
Those are the consequences of their being in power... but what they want to get out of it personally, I don't know! Unless, they simply have such huge self-belief that they truely think they deserve to hold in their hands the levers of power... which beggers belief, really, 'specially since it's so obvious to anyone with any sense that they're both very wrong!! :shock:
De Peffle's performances at PMQs are getting more & more embarrassing...

IMO I think they truly beleive they're meant to be in the positions they hold because they were crooked enough to get there.
These people have no more care for the nations in their charge than they have of ants or rats,it's a gravy train to be ridden and make out of it what they will for their own egotistical pomp and wealth.

We've had in the past ten years the worst PM's on record which is historic in itself,to now have in power someone who can only be described as a clown who cannot formulate a way forward other than twist and turn and U turn at the drop of a hat is frankly beyond belief.
The whole thing is a game to him and very bad joke AFAIC on the people of the country,how anyone has any belief in BoJo and his circus act is frankly laughable.
As for Trump he is one very sinister indvidual,who isn't fit to lace Obama's boots IMV.
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ANTONISH
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby ANTONISH » 18 Jun 2020, 3:12pm

reohn2 wrote:What's that about not learning from your past and as a result repeating it?
When the past is written by the winners,secretly and securely hidden away from view,we'll never learn.
Whether we like it or not the UK has a very dark past,some of it more recent than many people realise or wish to admit and which UK governments don't want us to know.


And yet we do know about it.
We are constantly reminded about our "dark past".
Most people living in this country at the time these dark events took place had little to do with them - and certainly benefited little.
There are many countries in the world of which this is true.

I don't feel any guilt about the past - much as I don't expect the present German population to feel guilt about the Nazi era.
Constantly revisiting the past is not going to benefit the present day population of whatever ethnic group.
We should be concentrating on correcting the wrongs that occur today and ensuring equality for all.

reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 18 Jun 2020, 4:34pm

ANTONISH wrote:
reohn2 wrote:What's that about not learning from your past and as a result repeating it?
When the past is written by the winners,secretly and securely hidden away from view,we'll never learn.
Whether we like it or not the UK has a very dark past,some of it more recent than many people realise or wish to admit and which UK governments don't want us to know.


And yet we do know about it.
We are constantly reminded about our "dark past".
Most people living in this country at the time these dark events took place had little to do with them - and certainly benefited little.
There are many countries in the world of which this is true.

I don't feel any guilt about the past - much as I don't expect the present German population to feel guilt about the Nazi era.
Constantly revisiting the past is not going to benefit the present day population of whatever ethnic group.
We should be concentrating on correcting the wrongs that occur today and ensuring equality for all.


I don't feel ashamed about what British people have done that I didn't have any involvement with,however I do feel ashamed that my country that I am part due to birth has treated it's people and other nations people whilst trying to appear virtuous when in my lifetime it's been no better than Nazi Germany in some respects and only lacking in the same industry shown by them in it's organised killing of innocent people.

Read the first line of my post you quoted.
Then think about the grand failure that is the austery plan persisted with by the Tory government of the past ten years,and as a result the rise in homelessness in that time or increase need for foodbanks in that time,the lack of proper funding of schools in that time,the reduction in NHS funding in that time,the Grenfell Tower atrocity in that time,the reduction in policing leading to higher crime rates,the supply of weapons by this country to despotic regemes such as Saudi Arabia,and on,and on,and on it goes.
We also have a dark present too!
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ANTONISH
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby ANTONISH » 18 Jun 2020, 5:19pm

reohn2 wrote:
ANTONISH wrote:
reohn2 wrote:What's that about not learning from your past and as a result repeating it?
When the past is written by the winners,secretly and securely hidden away from view,we'll never learn.
Whether we like it or not the UK has a very dark past,some of it more recent than many people realise or wish to admit and which UK governments don't want us to know.


And yet we do know about it.
We are constantly reminded about our "dark past".
Most people living in this country at the time these dark events took place had little to do with them - and certainly benefited little.
There are many countries in the world of which this is true.

I don't feel any guilt about the past - much as I don't expect the present German population to feel guilt about the Nazi era.
Constantly revisiting the past is not going to benefit the present day population of whatever ethnic group.
We should be concentrating on correcting the wrongs that occur today and ensuring equality for all.


I don't feel ashamed about what British people have done that I didn't have any involvement with,however I do feel ashamed that my country that I am part due to birth has treated it's people and other nations people whilst trying to appear virtuous when in my lifetime it's been no better than Nazi Germany in some respects and only lacking in the same industry shown by them in it's organised killing of innocent people.

Read the first line of my post you quoted.
Then think about the grand failure that is the austery plan persisted with by the Tory government of the past ten years,and as a result the rise in homelessness in that time or increase need for foodbanks in that time,the lack of proper funding of schools in that time,the reduction in NHS funding in that time,the Grenfell Tower atrocity in that time,the reduction in policing leading to higher crime rates,the supply of weapons by this country to despotic regemes such as Saudi Arabia,and on,and on,and on it goes.
We also have a dark present too!


Why be ashamed of your country ? - it's the people in charge who cause wrongs to be committed aided and abetted by those who elected them and other non elected individuals with power.
Homelessness has been rising in this country for more than thirty years - mainly caused by an increasing shortage of social housing - some of that sold to the occupants during the right to buy initiative has been sold back to the public sector at a large profit or found it's way into the private rental sector.
Of course austerity (not a plan as such) has hit the weakest in society and benefited the stronger.

Manc33
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Manc33 » 18 Jun 2020, 5:24pm

We can be told anything... and are.
When two cyclists get married, they should throw anodized cable crimps instead of confetti.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 18 Jun 2020, 6:27pm

ANTONISH wrote:
Why be ashamed of your country ? - it's the people in charge who cause wrongs to be committed aided and abetted by those who elected them and other non elected individuals with power.
Homelessness has been rising in this country for more than thirty years - mainly caused by an increasing shortage of social housing - some of that sold to the occupants during the right to buy initiative has been sold back to the public sector at a large profit or found it's way into the private rental sector.
Of course austerity (not a plan as such) has hit the weakest in society and benefited the stronger.

I think we're of the same mind,I find it embarassing that UK people are so stupid to vote for what can only be described an inept and morally bankrupt political part as the Tories,and more so the latest clownatic currently making an even bigger mess than we're already in! :?
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mumbojumbo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mumbojumbo » 18 Jun 2020, 7:57pm

I think you are wrong to state that people are stupid in their voting decisions,as the alternatives were deemed unpalatable.In addition those voting Tory were under 50pc of those eligible to vote.I would also point out there is no single history,but rather a series of histories depending on perspective.Facts can be questiioned,and real history focuses on causes and effects events.Many facts are omitted or obscured resulting in an unfavourable or favourable presentation of events.