How to lie about history.

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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 8:31am

mumbojumbo wrote:I think you are wrong to state that people are stupid in their voting decisions.

You have your opinion on stupidity I have mine.
The well off mostly vote Tory to look after themselves rather than the country as a whole,the rest who voted were had and stupid enough to believe the sales talk and 'getting brexit done'

as the alternatives were deemed unpalatable

Deemed unpalatable by whom in the run up to the election,the righ wing media andnmultinational companies who poured millions of £££'s into the sales blurb?

And why were the oposition so unpalatable?
IMO because the status quo had to be maintained,where profit counts above all.


In addition those voting Tory were under 50pc of those eligible to vote.

Is that democracy?
To my mind it doesn't warrant a landslide and an overwhelming majority in thr HofC
The system's broken and rigged


I would also point out there is no single history,but rather a series of histories depending on perspective

Did I post otherwise?
I think we agree on that


Facts can be questiioned,and real history focuses on causes and effects events.Many facts are omitted or obscured resulting in an unfavourable or favourable presentation of events.

Agreed, and as we know only too well the winners write history.
I wonder what history will make of the past ten years of Tory government?
We already know what it makes of the previous ten of Nude Labour
As for the Thatcher and Major years make of them what you will IMO they laid down the building blocks for the disasterous decade we've just had,and set to get worse with the present bunch of schoolboys voted in to do a wo/man's job that's beyond their capabilities.
With likes of Cummings setting policy,and a pro football player able to U turn government policy,for the better I might add, within a 12 hour period,whilst the handling of the pandemic has been nothing short of an utter disasterous mish mash leading to almost the highest death toll in the world.
How unpalatable do the Tories have to get before people realise they wear had by cowboy salesmen who can't run the proverbial in a brewery?
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francovendee
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby francovendee » 19 Jun 2020, 8:48am

World beating, doesn't matter what just world beating :roll:

mumbojumbo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mumbojumbo » 19 Jun 2020, 9:45am

The alternatives to Tories were judged unacceptable by the electorate,after an unfavourable representation by the media etcHowever the Labour manifesto lacked coherence and I felt it was a shopping list of ill-considered options.For example,did we really need free broadband?Do all workers,especially those on low hourly wages,want a shorter working week?The manifesto made a shredding job all the easier.

Ben@Forest
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Ben@Forest » 19 Jun 2020, 10:32am

mumbojumbo wrote:The alternatives to Tories were judged unacceptable by the electorate,after an unfavourable representation by the media etcHowever the Labour manifesto lacked coherence and I felt it was a shopping list of ill-considered options.For example,did we really need free broadband?Do all workers,especially those on low hourly wages,want a shorter working week?The manifesto made a shredding job all the easier.


We're revisiting well trod ground here. People didn't trust Corbyn; his sympathy for Irish nationalist terrorist groups (well before there was a ceasefire), his apparent distaste for the British military and the royalty; his seeming indifference to anti-semitic behaviour in his own party and inability to recognise anti-semitic tropes all made him unpalatable to a vast swathe of the British public.

Johnson, for all his faults, appears optimistic with a 'getting things done' approach that appeals. He may or may not 'get things done' and if he fails he'll be out but he was bouyant compared to Corbyn who came across as a petty schoolmaster who persistently wanted to criticise without highlighting the essential decency of most people in this country. As a politician you've got to do a good job of showing belief in the voters whether you believe it or not. Johnson did, Corbyn didn't.

Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 12:01pm

How unpalatable do the Tories have to get? Well it seems a lot more unpalatable judging by the last election. Many have said on here that we need an effective opposition. We need someone to vote for that is a better option. It's simply a lazy narrative to blame right wing media for labour's inability to beat the incompetent shower in the Tory party. The last labour government got the media onside. A sound opposition could achieve that too. The only cost is to move from the left to a centre left position that can appeal to more voters. I really hope that happens before the next ge.

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philg
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby philg » 19 Jun 2020, 12:34pm


reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 1:44pm

mumbojumbo wrote:The alternatives to Tories were judged unacceptable by the electorate,after an unfavourable representation by the media etcHowever the Labour manifesto lacked coherence and I felt it was a shopping list of ill-considered options.For example,did we really need free broadband?Do all workers,especially those on low hourly wages,want a shorter working week?The manifesto made a shredding job all the easier.


How mush is free broadband worth now in the present situation?
Have you ever thought how much travel it could save workers?
The UK works the longest hours in Europe.
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 1:51pm

Tangled Metal wrote:How unpalatable do the Tories have to get? Well it seems a lot more unpalatable judging by the last election. Many have said on here that we need an effective opposition. We need someone to vote for that is a better option. It's simply a lazy narrative to blame right wing media for labour's inability to beat the incompetent shower in the Tory party. The last labour government got the media onside. A sound opposition could achieve that too. The only cost is to move from the left to a centre left position that can appeal to more voters. I really hope that happens before the next ge.

Have you any idea just how wrong and undemocraric it is that a political party has to cosy up to to billionaires who own the media and have the power to buy and sell them?
It only proves to me just how broken democracy is in the UK.
Last edited by reohn2 on 19 Jun 2020, 3:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 1:53pm

Ben@Forest
See my reply to TM
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Ben@Forest
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Ben@Forest » 19 Jun 2020, 2:29pm

reohn2 wrote:Have you any idea just how wrong and undemocraric it is that a political party has to cosy up to to billionaires who own the media andnhavemthe power to buy and sell them?
It only proves to me just how broken democracy is in the UK.


Why do you think it's worse in the UK than elsewhere? According to the Democracy Index of 2019 the UK was 14th (of 167). Less democratic then Norway or Canada but more than France, Spain or Austria. There are only 22 countries in the full democracy category (Belgium and Italy aren't in that 22).

Can the UK improve - yes. Is it unusually bad? No. Is it unusually bad in European terms? No. Are there rich people or companies or trade unions who unduly influence or have unduly influenced governments in all western democracies? Yes.

This isn't whataboutery, it is realism. The UK is less broken than many other countries, even amongst our near neighbours. Money and influence speaks everywhere.

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al_yrpal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Jun 2020, 2:42pm

The first thing a University teaches students of history, news or whatever is to think about who wrote it and what their angle is. What some see are truths are to others lies and distortions. Plenty of subject matter around currently ...

Al
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 2:50pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Have you any idea just how wrong and undemocraric it is that a political party has to cosy up to to billionaires who own the media andnhavemthe power to buy and sell them?
It only proves to me just how broken democracy is in the UK.


Why do you think it's worse in the UK than elsewhere? According to the Democracy Index of 2019 the UK was 14th (of 167). Less democratic then Norway or Canada but more than France, Spain or Austria. There are only 22 countries in the full democracy category (Belgium and Italy aren't in that 22).

Can the UK improve - yes. Is it unusually bad? No. Is it unusually bad in European terms? No. Are there rich people or companies or trade unions who unduly influence or have unduly influenced governments in all western democracies? Yes.

This isn't whataboutery, it is realism. The UK is less broken than many other countries, even amongst our near neighbours. Money and influence speaks everywhere.

Thanks for confirming what I already know that democracy in the UK is broken.

There's been a character assination on Corbyn for many a year by influential billionaires because he was a threat their influence on the country in which most of them don't even live in.
As you say money does talk,though IMO in present day UK money doesn't just talk it screams abuse in the face the ordinary wo/man on the street,if you can't see that I suggest you look a little deeper as the gap between rich and poor has grown during the past ten years.
As for antisemitism I don't beleive the Labour party is antisemitic that's not to say there are antisemites in it,there most definitely are.
Juxtapose that with the Tory party's Windrush and hostile environment debacle
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Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 3:22pm

philg wrote:https://docs.labourtogether.uk/Labour%20Together%202019%20Election%20Review.pdf

Interesting document, thanks. Not had time to fully read but the introduction I have read looks like it's worth reading.

One thing I noticed, well two things, the commissioners do seem to be strongly from the left of the party and the heat map of contributions had a very strong contribution from London constituencies and a little less strong in the Midlands and North Wales into Merseyside towards Manchester. The North. England in and North East in particular seemed less involved. AIUI those areas were when labour lost more of the votes they used to count on to win power. Does anyone know if this document leaning towards what the left wants to hear not what they need to hear? I think part of the problem was closed ears to anyone they didn't want to listen to.

Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 3:25pm

reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:How unpalatable do the Tories have to get? Well it seems a lot more unpalatable judging by the last election. Many have said on here that we need an effective opposition. We need someone to vote for that is a better option. It's simply a lazy narrative to blame right wing media for labour's inability to beat the incompetent shower in the Tory party. The last labour government got the media onside. A sound opposition could achieve that too. The only cost is to move from the left to a centre left position that can appeal to more voters. I really hope that happens before the next ge.

Have you any idea just how wrong and undemocraric it is that a political party has to cosy up to to billionaires who own the media andnhavemthe power to buy and sell them?
It only proves to me just how broken democracy is in the UK.

How wrong is it for any party to cosy up to anyone but the electorate? I've said it many times that unions and business men have no place funding political candidates or parties. They should also have no part in choosing candidates and setting policies. It's all part of the same sort of corruption just opposite sides of the political coin.

Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 3:31pm

reohn2 wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Have you any idea just how wrong and undemocraric it is that a political party has to cosy up to to billionaires who own the media andnhavemthe power to buy and sell them?
It only proves to me just how broken democracy is in the UK.


Why do you think it's worse in the UK than elsewhere? According to the Democracy Index of 2019 the UK was 14th (of 167). Less democratic then Norway or Canada but more than France, Spain or Austria. There are only 22 countries in the full democracy category (Belgium and Italy aren't in that 22).

Can the UK improve - yes. Is it unusually bad? No. Is it unusually bad in European terms? No. Are there rich people or companies or trade unions who unduly influence or have unduly influenced governments in all western democracies? Yes.

This isn't whataboutery, it is realism. The UK is less broken than many other countries, even amongst our near neighbours. Money and influence speaks everywhere.

Thanks for confirming what I already know that democracy in the UK is broken.

There's been a character assination on Corbyn for many a year by influential billionaires because he was a threat their influence on the country in which most of them don't even live in.
As you say money does talk,though IMO in present day UK money doesn't just talk it screams abuse in the face the ordinary wo/man on the street,if you can't see that I suggest you look a little deeper as the gap between rich and poor has grown during the past ten years.
As for antisemitism I don't beleive the Labour party is antisemitic that's not to say there are antisemites in it,there most definitely are.
Juxtapose that with the Tory party's Windrush and hostile environment debacle

You only confirm my opinion of the left in politics that you only listen to what confirms your opinion. You don't like independent data on democracy so you ignore it and move on to talk about what you feel safer talking about. Deflection and a deaf ear. If course pet arguments about evil billionaires, evil media and poor Corbyn the victim. If Communists believed in religion I bet they're have sanctified him by now. :lol: