How to lie about history.

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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 3:34pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:How unpalatable do the Tories have to get? Well it seems a lot more unpalatable judging by the last election. Many have said on here that we need an effective opposition. We need someone to vote for that is a better option. It's simply a lazy narrative to blame right wing media for labour's inability to beat the incompetent shower in the Tory party. The last labour government got the media onside. A sound opposition could achieve that too. The only cost is to move from the left to a centre left position that can appeal to more voters. I really hope that happens before the next ge.

Have you any idea just how wrong and undemocraric it is that a political party has to cosy up to to billionaires who own the media andnhavemthe power to buy and sell them?
It only proves to me just how broken democracy is in the UK.

How wrong is it for any party to cosy up to anyone but the electorate? I've said it many times that unions and business men have no place funding political candidates or parties. They should also have no part in choosing candidates and setting policies. It's all part of the same sort of corruption just opposite sides of the political coin.

But the Labour party is the Trade Union movement,a movement the Tory party has systematically hated and sought to destroy,because fundamentally the Tory party is not for majority but is owned by business.
At present big business in the form of neoliberal capitalism is winning and the people are becoming worse of for it.
There's a storm coming.
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 3:38pm

Tangled Metal wrote:You only confirm my opinion of the left in politics that you only listen to what confirms your opinion. You don't like independent data on democracy so you ignore it and move on to talk about what you feel safer talking about. Deflection and a deaf ear. If course pet arguments about evil billionaires, evil media and poor Corbyn the victim. If Communists believed in religion I bet they're have sanctified him by now. :lol:


I'm not quite the fool you take me for nor am I a communist or a Labour party member.
There's a middle ground and a better society,this isnt it.
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Manc33
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Manc33 » 19 Jun 2020, 3:39pm

Aristocracy > Timocracy > Oligarchy > Democracy > Tyranny

(rinse and repeat)

We are at the end of democracy now, just turning into tyranny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_five_regimes

I don't know how long this cycle takes, centuries probably since we are well out of the Aristocracy times (medieval times).

Each generation is born and dies, never knowing they are part of this centuries long cycle.

Meanwhile we are all arguing over nonsense just as the people controlling all political parties want it to be. "It's the conservatives fault" and "No it's because of Labour the last 8 years, we need a change" and "No, we can't go back to them, leave things as they are, the Conservatives are better". On and on and on and on and on and on. For example this is a bike forum, yet look at the amount of political talk that goes on here.

This is usually the part where someone says "You run for government if you don't like it". Nope, because I'm not corrupt, I'm not a liar. I am just the guy pointing out all of politics is run by the same people, that benefit from presenting us with a false choice. It's a bit like how people see Dixon's, Curry's and Comet all on the same row of shops, when "Dixon's Group Plc" owns all of them.

I bet even Pepsi owns Coca-Cola (or vice versa) behind the scenes. Microsoft probably owns Apple and so on. If they don't want people to know these things, it's not difficult to hide it. Meanwhile we are arguing and "debating" continually like it matters.
When two cyclists get married, they should throw anodized cable crimps instead of confetti.

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philg
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby philg » 19 Jun 2020, 3:44pm

Manc33 wrote:Meanwhile we are arguing and "debating" continually like it matters.

Well some certainly are, others just enjoying the sh*ts & giggles on the internet as there's sod all else to do atm :mrgreen:

Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 4:20pm

reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:You only confirm my opinion of the left in politics that you only listen to what confirms your opinion. You don't like independent data on democracy so you ignore it and move on to talk about what you feel safer talking about. Deflection and a deaf ear. If course pet arguments about evil billionaires, evil media and poor Corbyn the victim. If Communists believed in religion I bet they're have sanctified him by now. :lol:


I'm not quite the fool you take me for nor am I a communist or a Labour party member.
There's a middle ground and a better society,this isnt it.

And Corbyn version of a better society isn't t neither.

Unionism is part of the founding of the labour party just as merchant classes and landowning classes were part of conservative party. That doesn't mean they're right to be part of political parties now. Things move on but parties haven't. IMHO I agree that businessmen shouldn't fund and influence parties but I also think that applies to unions. Isn't it time the labour party stood on it's own merits not propped up by unions?

BTW I don't assume you're a labour party member or Communist and I have never taken you as a fool, far from it. The Communist jibe was a little dig at the more leftist corbynistas. The ones who sang his name to the 7 nations army choru s by the white Stripes. They kind of sanctified him.

Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 4:28pm

philg wrote:
Manc33 wrote:Meanwhile we are arguing and "debating" continually like it matters.

Well some certainly are, others just enjoying the sh*ts & giggles on the internet as there's sod all else to do atm :mrgreen:

Isn't that true. I've lost interest in it all and only join in for the pasttime these days. :lol:

https://youtu.be/0J2QdDbelmY

reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 5:08pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:You only confirm my opinion of the left in politics that you only listen to what confirms your opinion. You don't like independent data on democracy so you ignore it and move on to talk about what you feel safer talking about. Deflection and a deaf ear. If course pet arguments about evil billionaires, evil media and poor Corbyn the victim. If Communists believed in religion I bet they're have sanctified him by now. :lol:


I'm not quite the fool you take me for nor am I a communist or a Labour party member.
There's a middle ground and a better society,this isnt it.

And Corbyn version of a better society isn't t neither.

How do you know?
We only think we know about anything until it's tested,but from what I've seen tested in the past 30 years isn't even approaching optimum by a long shot.

Unionism is part of the founding of the labour party just as merchant classes and landowning classes were part of conservative party. That doesn't mean they're right to be part of political parties now. Things move on but parties haven't. IMHO I agree that businessmen shouldn't fund and influence parties but I also think that applies to unions. Isn't it time the labour party stood on it's own merits not propped up by unions?

The Labour party as I said before is the Trade Unions their remit is a fair deal for the working wo/man,admittedly they've been responsible for wagged the dog at times but that's long gone.
OTOH the growth of neoliberal captialism that is now the Tory party is only for the rich to become richer and the gap between them and the rest to be as wide as they can make it,to be rich is now a virtue.
That IMO is the evil that will destroy society and only ever lead to division of it,I firmly believe that to be true and Ifirmly believe neoberal capitalism to be at the black heart of it.
Take a look at the growth of poverty,foodbanks,homelessness,lack of funding in education,the police the NHS,public transport.
The growth in huge gas guzzling cars,shopping as a hobby,crap fast food to eatmin front of your favourite crap TV soap.

We are heading in the wrong direction,if you want an example of where it leads look west at the USA,not just in consumer goods and food but in our politics too!
It's not a healthy society to live in

BTW I don't assume you're a labour party member or Communist and I have never taken you as a fool, far from it. The Communist jibe was a little dig at the more leftist corbynistas. The ones who sang his name to the 7 nations army choru s by the white Stripes. They kind of sanctified him.

Thank you it was the laughing face at the end of your post that did it.
TBH at the last election of the two parties on offer and going off the Tory party's track record,which regard as abysmal in the extreme if not criminal.
The Labour party was a far better choice,as for sanctifing Corbyn or regarding him as some knight on a white charger saviour,I've long since given up on heroes,but I did admire his honesty whereas BoJo was and is,
a worldwide laughing stock,athough has now become more a tragicomedy in the six months he and his government have managed to wreck an already fragile economy and been responsible for the third highest death toll on the planet in the current crisis.
Now people may criticise the left,but they are nothing to havoc wreaked by the right in my adult lifetime YVMV mine won't until proven otherwise.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 5:57pm

Glad your opinion didn't hold sway in December 2019. As bad as boris is I still hold the view that Corbyn government would have been worse. Tbh a lot of labour heartland chose to return a Tory mp. Labour under Corbyn didn't represent then. No escaping that.

Labour isn't the same as unions now. They're a part of it, as questionable as businessmen in the Tories imho, but it's not quite the same these days. Things move on perhaps party funding and alleged control needs to change.

We'll never agree with each other R2. At best we'll one day learn to respect each other's position.

reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jun 2020, 6:17pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Glad your opinion didn't hold sway in December 2019. As bad as boris is I still hold the view that Corbyn government would have been worse. Tbh a lot of labour heartland chose to return a Tory mp. Labour under Corbyn didn't represent then. No escaping that.

That's self evident,but I'd bet htose Labour heartlands are having a rethink now though.

Labour isn't the same as unions now. They're a part of it, as questionable as businessmen in the Tories imho, but it's not quite the same these days. Things move on perhaps party funding and alleged control needs to change

I disagree IMO Trade Unions are far more moderate responsible now than ever.

We'll never agree with each other R2. At best we'll one day learn to respect each other's position.

I do respect your opinion,with the Tories track record and the rise of the despotic neoliberal capitalism system,stuggle to understand it
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Ben@Forest
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Ben@Forest » 19 Jun 2020, 8:57pm

philg wrote:https://docs.labourtogether.uk/Labour%20Together%202019%20Election%20Review.pdf


Very good read. Lots of reasons why Labour did so badly, though it only really indirectly blames Corbyn or the Corbyn factor when it should actually acknowledge his inadequacies as a leader. Also, considering the significant criticisms of Labour's strategy all the way from 2015 to 2019, it's amazing Seumas Milne, who was Director of Strategy still has a Labour job at all. (He was finally sacked from that job in April but apparently is still employed - doing what I don't know).

Best quote in the report is actually from a book about the 2017 election - it says it all really:

“The Conservative Party did not lose Britain’s 2017 general election, but it has spent the last two and a half years trying to understand why it did. The Labour Party, in contrast, did lose the 2017 election but has acted as if it did not”.

Freddie
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Freddie » 19 Jun 2020, 9:26pm

Ben@Forest wrote:Best quote in the report is actually from a book about the 2017 election - it says it all really:

“The Conservative Party did not lose Britain’s 2017 general election, but it has spent the last two and a half years trying to understand why it did. The Labour Party, in contrast, did lose the 2017 election but has acted as if it did not”.
I get the feeling the Labour party, rather like a few members here, have an unshakable belief that they are right, not only in a factual sense, but more so in a moral one, so much so that to even consider ideas or positions that may lead them from the straight and narrow path (ideologically speaking), is akin to making a pact with the devil himself.

Notice how so many arguments are not about whether their opposition is correct, but are often based around dubious claims about their moral character. This is why Labour will not, indeed cannot, reconsider the course they have chosen, because to court those outside their ever diminishing ideological bubble is to, in their eyes, court the wicked and immoral.

kwackers
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby kwackers » 19 Jun 2020, 10:17pm

Ben@Forest wrote:though it only really indirectly blames Corbyn or the Corbyn factor when it should actually acknowledge his inadequacies as a leader

FWIW, if inadequacy as a leader was at all important then we wouldn't have gotten BoJo either.
He was hardly sparkling during the election and has been pretty poor since.

I think we're doomed to repeat the American experiment in pee poor leaders.

Not that it matters, all the money has gone anyway. We're probably more socialist at this moment than anything Corbyn promised.
All that remains to be seen is whether the tories have learnt nothing from history and experts and think that even less spending is the way out of the current mess.

reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 20 Jun 2020, 11:13am

Freddie wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:Best quote in the report is actually from a book about the 2017 election - it says it all really:

“The Conservative Party did not lose Britain’s 2017 general election, but it has spent the last two and a half years trying to understand why it did. The Labour Party, in contrast, did lose the 2017 election but has acted as if it did not”.
I get the feeling the Labour party, rather like a few members here, have an unshakable belief that they are right, not only in a factual sense, but more so in a moral one, so much so that to even consider ideas or positions that may lead them from the straight and narrow path (ideologically speaking), is akin to making a pact with the devil himself.

Notice how so many arguments are not about whether their opposition is correct, but are often based around dubious claims about their moral character. This is why Labour will not, indeed cannot, reconsider the course they have chosen, because to court those outside their ever diminishing ideological bubble is to, in their eyes, court the wicked and immoral.


Which seems to indicate this present and indeed the past ten years is the best the UK has for political leadership.
AFAICS it's been money buying the best and slickest election campaigns that's put the UK were it is today,a world wide laughing stock.
If your'e happy with that it answers a lot of questions.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Jun 2020, 11:21pm

Laughing stock? I doubt that. Behind the Brexit hype there lies the good remains between individual countries in Europe and the UK. A current affairs programme I saw that did a piece on Macron's recent visit. The correspondent said the relationship between France and UK is very strong. Long before Brexit there were a lot of bilateral agreements with France especially such as military cooperation. Other countries too have a good relationship with the UK. We are not the laughing stock you paint us as being.

Although I guess both Boris and Corbyn are laughing stocks but the country isn't.

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al_yrpal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby al_yrpal » 20 Jun 2020, 11:48pm

The Britain haters are thick on the ground here. I'll bet not one of them has any friendships or communication with ordinary folk in other countries. It's just their hatred you are hearing. I don't think any of my friends abroad have ever heard of Corbyn and their knowledge of Boris is very scant. To a man and woman everyone I correspond with holds Britain in high regard despite some of our actions that appear to be puzzling to them. The Bavarians I know all want Germany out of the EU. To them it's just another massive drain on their pensions

Al
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