How to lie about history.

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mikeymo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mikeymo » 21 Jun 2020, 1:57am

Ben@Forest wrote:“The Conservative Party did not lose Britain’s 2017 general election, but it has spent the last two and a half years trying to understand why it did. The Labour Party, in contrast, did lose the 2017 election but has acted as if it did not”.


Yes, that is indeed an excellent quote.

The Labour Party doesn't hate the Conservative Party. It needs it. Because the Labour party always defines itself, in the last resort, as "not the Tory party". Without the Tories, Labour can't function. The Tories do it a bit too, but not as obviously, and usually manage to make their policies at least sound coherent. Let's face it, they're just a bit better at winning elections. Those two parties aren't really enemies, they're locked in a symbiotic embrace.

I don't know what the Labour party will do next, but it's certainly doing a pretty good job of digging its own grave at the moment. Consider this - two of the most, how shall I put it, "significant", Prime Ministers of the last few decades have been Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair. That's clear, whether you love them or loathe them. Each of them led their respective parties to long periods in power. But in the current Labour Party many of Corbyn's supporters are still banging on and on about how awful Tony Blair was. For them calling somebody a Blairite is the biggest insult they can deliver. You don't hear anything like that in the Tory party - "you're just an old Thatcherite" isn't some argument-ending body blow for modern Tories.

I've never voted Conservative. I haven't voted Labour since Iraq. I don't suppose I'll vote for either of those parties ever again.
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francovendee
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby francovendee » 21 Jun 2020, 9:35am

Talking to French friends about UK politics (some do look beyond France :D ) they all know of Thatcher and many of Blair.

By and large they've never heard of Corbyn and you have to explain how he became leader of the opposition.

Obviously they know of Churchill and he's generally thought of as a great leader.

Boris get's mentioned a lot, but not with respect.

Our nearest neighbour makes a point of asking me about the C19 outbreak in the UK and why has the UK done so badly.
I'm sure he does it out of devilment but it makes this Brit feel embarrassed.
I get my own back by suggesting Marine Le Pen will get elected next time.

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simonineaston
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby simonineaston » 21 Jun 2020, 9:44am

I've never voted Conservative. I haven't voted Labour since Iraq. I don't suppose I'll vote for either of those parties ever again.
So how do you apply influence on the way the country is run? (I'm not being snippy, I'm simply wondering how you and the many like you, who've given up on the mainstream political system, make any difference??)
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 21 Jun 2020, 9:47am

al_yrpal wrote:The Britain haters are thick on the ground here......

Al

I'm no 'Britain hater' as you so often like to put it,so stop throwing the slurs around.
I don't like tye way the country is wanting to be like little USA.
Leaving the the EU (for all it's faults)will leave the country on it's knees and wide open to abuse by the bigger fish in the sea,as if the mishandling of the Covid19 crisis by the present government hasn't done enough in that direction already.
You speak,like me from a privileged position of monetary security in our twilight years,many,many people aren't so lucky and it isn't the EU that's caused that,but lurch to the right and of profit before people.
In the past ten years:-
Poverty has grown
Homelessness has grown
Education funding has reduced
NHS funding has reduced
Policing has reduced
Wages for the lower paid has reduced
Council funding has been slashed
Infrastructure is failing
Public transport is failing,especially rail
Foodbanks have increased exponentially
Violent crime is rising.

If you are happy with that state of affairs,I'm not and it's set to get worse IMO,that's not because I hate the country where I was born and have lived all my life but because I don't like the way it's being run and owned by a priveliged few some who don't even live here or pay taxes here and some who do live here and don't pay any taxes here but are looking forward to the 'bonfire of regulations' so they can increase their power and profit,something which the EU is attempting to stop.

I don't have friends in Baveria or around the world but I read,and I read the incredulity people in Europe have in the way the UK is run and is heading.
YVMV
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 21 Jun 2020, 9:58am

Tangled Metal wrote:Laughing stock? I doubt that. Behind the Brexit hype there lies the good remains between individual countries in Europe and the UK. A current affairs programme I saw that did a piece on Macron's recent visit. The correspondent said the relationship between France and UK is very strong. Long before Brexit there were a lot of bilateral agreements with France especially such as military cooperation. Other countries too have a good relationship with the UK. We are not the laughing stock you paint us as being.

Although I guess both Boris and Corbyn are laughing stocks but the country isn't.

I was talking about the way the country is being run and the way people in other countries perceive the UK,not how the UK has links and relations with them that's government and commerce.
Do you honestly think since the 2008 crash,the country could not have been run far better than it has?
The country hasn't moved an inch forward in that time AFAICS,whilst others invested in their infrastructure and created worthwhile work borrowing when money was cheap to borrow,the UK went into austerity that's seen it go the other way and stagnate.
If ever there wasn't a time to have a referendum on leaving the EU 2016 was it.
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mikeymo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mikeymo » 21 Jun 2020, 12:06pm

simonineaston wrote:
I've never voted Conservative. I haven't voted Labour since Iraq. I don't suppose I'll vote for either of those parties ever again.
So how do you apply influence on the way the country is run? (I'm not being snippy, I'm simply wondering how you and the many like you, who've given up on the mainstream political system, make any difference??)


Other candidates are available.

If you have been duped into believing that the only choices in UK politics are the Conservatives and the Labour party, then you have fallen for their game. Because that is exactly what those two parties would like you to believe. And of course it is a self-fulfilling prophecy - "Such and such a party are OK, but they'll never win here, so I've got to vote Labour/Conservative". And so on it goes. Thankfully in some places that is breaking down now. Scotland, for instance. Labour has lost Scotland. And now they are losing many parts of England.
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 21 Jun 2020, 12:47pm

mikeymo wrote:
simonineaston wrote:
I've never voted Conservative. I haven't voted Labour since Iraq. I don't suppose I'll vote for either of those parties ever again.
So how do you apply influence on the way the country is run? (I'm not being snippy, I'm simply wondering how you and the many like you, who've given up on the mainstream political system, make any difference??)


Other candidates are available.

If you have been duped into believing that the only choices in UK politics are the Conservatives and the Labour party, then you have fallen for their game. Because that is exactly what those two parties would like you to believe. And of course it is a self-fulfilling prophecy - "Such and such a party are OK, but they'll never win here, so I've got to vote Labour/Conservative". And so on it goes. Thankfully in some places that is breaking down now. Scotland, for instance. Labour has lost Scotland. And now they are losing many parts of England.

I agree,though the parts of England that Labour have lost hasn't been to other parties but to the Tories and not a one nation Tory party but a Tory party that's lurched further right than ever.
In fact so far right that it excommunicated the one nation members who dared contradict the way the party was heading.
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mikeymo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mikeymo » 21 Jun 2020, 1:30pm

reohn2 wrote:... Tory party but a Tory party that's lurched further right than ever.


I don't talk about "right" and "left" anymore. I think they are useless labels. If you want to engage in fruitful discussion with me you will have to use different language.
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reohn2
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby reohn2 » 21 Jun 2020, 1:36pm

mikeymo wrote:
reohn2 wrote:... Tory party but a Tory party that's lurched further right than ever.


I don't talk about "right" and "left" anymore. I think they are useless labels. If you want to engage in fruitful discussion with me you will have to use different language.

In light of your reply I've decided there's no point even attempting discussion with you on any subject,so I'd be grateful if you'll cease any replies to my posts,and I'll afford you the same privilege.
In the 12 years I've been posting on the forum I've seldom come across a more erasable and arrogant member.
Have a nice day :D
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mikeymo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mikeymo » 21 Jun 2020, 1:43pm

reohn2 wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
reohn2 wrote:... Tory party but a Tory party that's lurched further right than ever.


I don't talk about "right" and "left" anymore. I think they are useless labels. If you want to engage in fruitful discussion with me you will have to use different language.

In light of your reply I've decided there's no point even attempting discussion with you on any subject,so I'd be grateful if you'll cease any replies to my posts,and I'll afford you the same privilege.
In the 12 years I've been posting on the forum I've seldom come across a more erasable and arrogant member.


Sure, you stick to your political tramlines. They are the same ones that are leading the Labour party to its dead end.
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al_yrpal
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby al_yrpal » 21 Jun 2020, 2:17pm

stick to your political tramlines. They are the same ones that are leading the Labour party to its dead end.


Thats put succinctly. Unlike Mikey I will vote for either one of the biggest parties to get them a clear majority when I believe they have the better policies and for the last few years at least thats been the Tories. Until the greens, liberals or whatever come up with realistic policies which resonate with the public a vote for them is just a funk IMO. We have just been through a period of the lowest unemployment since the early 1970s. Opportunity was there for the taking and taxpayers were paying the highest level of taxes in living memory. We are now facing a very grim future. I do fear for our youngsters, its time for entrepreneurs like no other time and not time for the solutions of the left.

Al
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mikeymo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mikeymo » 21 Jun 2020, 2:37pm

simonineaston wrote:
I've never voted Conservative. I haven't voted Labour since Iraq. I don't suppose I'll vote for either of those parties ever again.
So how do you apply influence on the way the country is run? (I'm not being snippy, I'm simply wondering how you and the many like you, who've given up on the mainstream political system, make any difference??)


With all due respect, you are making assumptions about me which I don't think are accurate. And you are thinking about UK politics in a way which is at best harmful, and at worst simply not true.

To take the second of those first. I think that:

"Not voting Labour or Conservative" is not the same as "giving up on the mainstream political system."

The "mainstream political system" is elections, councils, candidates, parties and so on. The two dominant parties may be the Labour Party and the Conservatives. But they are not "the system".

About me and what I think is the mistaken assumption you have made about me:

I was brought up in highly political family. My parents met at their university Socialist Society, dad was a councillor for as long as I remember, a parliamentary candidate once. I am the only member of my family not to have ever been a member of the Labour Party. Left Labour at that. I have a brother who is a member of the Socialist Workers Party. I've read Marx and think everybody should be made to read Das Capital, or at least as much of it as they can stand. I don't think "Marxist" is an insult. So I know "the left"* a bit. I'm a member of two trade unions, have never crossed a picket line and took strike action only a few weeks ago. I voted for, and campaigned for (leafletting, donating etc.), Remain. I'm not a huge street activist, but, from memory, marches I have attended have included CND, protesting at the election of BNP members onto a local council, and against the Iraq war.

So, are you sure that refusing to vote Conservative or Labour is the same as "giving up on the mainstream political system"?

* "the left" because that is a term which people with that political viewpoint usually use. Hence the speech marks.
Last edited by mikeymo on 21 Jun 2020, 3:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikeymo
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby mikeymo » 21 Jun 2020, 2:52pm

al_yrpal wrote:
stick to your political tramlines. They are the same ones that are leading the Labour party to its dead end.


Thats put succinctly. Unlike Mikey I will vote for either one of the biggest parties to get them a clear majority when I believe they have the better policies and for the last few years at least thats been the Tories. Until the greens, liberals or whatever come up with realistic policies which resonate with the public a vote for them is just a funk IMO. We have just been through a period of the lowest unemployment since the early 1970s. Opportunity was there for the taking and taxpayers were paying the highest level of taxes in living memory. We are now facing a very grim future. I do fear for our youngsters, its time for entrepreneurs like no other time and not time for the solutions of the left.

Al


This article is interesting. I think it's written by somebody from a US Libertarian perspective, but that doesn't really matter.

https://freepress.org/article/wasted-vote-myth

Essentially, votes for small political parties who don't usually win are no more "wasted votes" than a vote for one of the "big two" is a "wasted vote". My parliamentary constituency is solid Labour. So if I vote for Harry's Truth and Beauty Party, you could say that I've wasted my vote, because Harry's never going to win. But if I vote for Joe Soap, "your local Labour MP since 1745", that's a wasted vote too, because he's already got enough votes to win. There's only one vote that wins, and there's no way of knowing whose it is.

Smaller parties do have influence, as the article states. And sometimes that grows. I'm old enough to remember the SNP being a bit of a joke in our (Labour) house. Especially as dad was Scottish and I was born in Scotland. Well, Labour in Scotland sure as hell aren't laughing about the SNP now, are they?
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simonineaston
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby simonineaston » 21 Jun 2020, 4:12pm

mikeymo wrote:you are making assumptions about me
Definitely not... I've learnt the hard way that "assumptions are the mother of all mistakes". (I think the most common version of the phrase uses a variant to the word mistake ;-) ) I invited you to comment, which you did, rather well, if I may say so :-)
ttfn, Simon in Easton
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francovendee
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Re: How to lie about history.

Postby francovendee » 23 Jun 2020, 3:09pm

The French, the ones that we have long conversations with, thought the UK model was something France should aspire to. After the referendum some thought the UK had a plan to be even wealthier outside of the EU. As an aside, French visitors to London see all the luxury cars and think everyone it doing better than they are.
Nobody has heard of Corbyn and whilst there is a general feeling of warmth to the UK, shared history etc. Boris is ridiculed as being the cause for the UK's poor containment of the C19 outbreak. Believe it or not but the younger French do take an interest in world affairs. Boris is spoken of in the same conversations about Trump, both the wrong leaders at a critical time.

On a personal level I'm British and will always remain British although living in another country.
Criticism of the govt. isn't the same as being a Britain hater.

Maybe I'm not really in a position to criticise living here but it saddens me to see what bad government we have ended up with. One armed with a huge majority that doesn't have to moderate a hard line approach or apologise for it's mistakes.

Off now on my bike as being accused of something I'm not makes me cross, I'll take it out on the pedals!