Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

[al_yrpal]

Objectively one has always to ask "who is asking the question and what is their angle?" Then, the answer is pretty clear. Anti Brexit, anti Tory, anti UK folk will always pick nits and try to do Britain down. Its pretty clear that several foriegn governments have lied through their teeth whereas the UKs thorough rigourous honesty has done us no favours. Another case of the usual suspects...

Al

[[XAP]Bob]

UK government... honesty...

“Kool aid, we need more kool aid over here”.

The government are given advice by the best medics in the country, then two days later announce policy changes which directly contradict that advice, and have the gall to claim they are led by the science.

[francovendee]

Is it possible to be critical of the UK govt's actions to contain the outbreak without being accused of being : negative, ant-brexit and anti British?

The facts are that the UK hasn't done well in containing this disease by any measure.

We are supposed to have one of the best health services in the world and at the height of the outbreak the hospitals weren't overrun.
Boris has repeatedly praised the public for obeying the rules so bad behaviour wasn't a factor.
The UK is a small crowded (in parts) country and this is held up as a reason for the death rate.

It may be worth looking at Japan who have some similarities. Small land mass, many live in cities but the deaths there are incredibly low.
Bear in mind they also have other factors that should have worked against them. Oldest population in the world and they are Asian.

The repeated 'World Beating' promises of things like testing and track and trace app and then 'spin' when it goes wrong only adds to a view of a floundering govt.

Would it have been any better under Corbyn, remember him, of course not but lets not mistake criticism of the govt as being anti Brexit, British or Tory.

[millimole]

lets not mistake criticism of the govt as being anti Brexit, British or Tory.

I feel it's fair to judge this government's response as an indication of how well they will deal with the fall out if we end up in a 'No Deal' situation at the end of December.
The signs are not good - strategic thinking is lacking, and nepotism seems to be the order of the day.
I personally think that 'No Deal' has been the plan all along, so to judge the government harshly on the current crisis, and to equate it with being Anti-brexit seems perfectly fair to me. If one considers crashing out of the EU without a decent set of trade deals to be against the national interest, then yes, it's also anti-british as well.
Tory? Well, if we link the Conservative philosophy of private sector delivery above all else, then we only need to look at recent examples of failure of 'the app', missed testing targets, and the complete collapse of the rail franchise system to see how tory this mess has been for Britain.

[Oldjohnw]

As soon as you hear 'game changing' or 'world beating' assume it will fail.

[reohn2]

Is it possible to be critical of the UK govt's actions to contain the outbreak without being accused of being : negative, ant-brexit and anti British?

The facts are that the UK hasn't done well in containing this disease by any measure.

We are supposed to have one of the best health services in the world and at the height of the outbreak the hospitals weren't overrun.
Boris has repeatedly praised the public for obeying the rules so bad behaviour wasn't a factor.
The UK is a small crowded (in parts) country and this is held up as a reason for the death rate.

It may be worth looking at Japan who have some similarities. Small land mass, many live in cities but the deaths there are incredibly low.
Bear in mind they also have other factors that should have worked against them. Oldest population in the world and they are Asian.

The repeated 'World Beating' promises of things like testing and track and trace app and then 'spin' when it goes wrong only adds to a view of a floundering govt.

Would it have been any better under Corbyn, remember him, of course not but lets not mistake criticism of the govt as being anti Brexit, British or Tory.

Spot on!
Except we don't know whether Corbyn and co would have done any better or not,by the simple fact his government are not in power and as a result have not been tested,this government have and have been sadly lacking to the point of ridiculous.
One one thing I will say though,anyone who thinks this government have done a good job of minimising the virus are deluded.

[reohn2]

Objectively one has always to ask "who is asking the question and what is their angle?" Then, the answer is pretty clear. Anti Brexit, anti Tory, anti UK folk will always pick nits and try to do Britain down. Its pretty clear that several foriegn governments have lied through their teeth whereas the UKs thorough rigourous honesty has done us no favours. Another case of the usual suspects...

Al

Al knows best and anyone who doesn't agree with Al is a Britain hater.
Yeah right.

[Paulatic]

I think it’s wrong to keep quoting population density as some sort of excuse. It’s been offered to me in the past as a reason somewhere like, Dumfries&Galloway, where I live has escaped lightly. Yes if you look at the acreage of D&G and divide it but the number of people then you will get a low number.
The reality is most of that acreage is used by sheep and trees the people in the major population, towns, live exactly the same as people in towns throughout the UK. Living, cheek by jowl, in flats, streets, houses and supermarkets built to service X number of people in a catchment area.

@francovendee says
[quote][Boris has repeatedly praised the public for obeying the rules so bad behaviour wasn't a factor./quote]

I didn’t realise Boris had been at work enough days to repeat anything but putting that aside what else could he say? As a leader yiu have to say that to praise those who were/ are following guidelines. Praising good behaviour and ignoring bad. To jump from those words and conclude bad behaviour wasn’t a factor I find alarming. By bad behaviour I’ve assumed it to include ignorance and wilfully not following guidelines.

As we all don’t work in meat factories the infection rate in the UK must have something to do with who we are and what we do rather than where we are.

[reohn2]

The problem of making your own decisions on distancing is other people making theirs. It takes two to distance-tango.

This problem exists regardless of guidance, it escalates when the guidance is 'relaxed'.

Quite right unless everyone is willing to play the game,and let's be honest not everyone is particularly the younger generation the mid teens to late 20's seem to be the worst offenders IME,we only prolong it's effect on the community and risk a second wave.

[roubaixtuesday]

My view is that the Government has made some mistakes but overall done as good a job if not better than anyone else in power would have managed.

Objectively, based on death rate, the government has done worse than any other developed nation. Despite having more time than many others.

Objectively it’s very hard to fairly judge based on the data available. The international data available is questionable in its accuracy and does not necessarily record events in a comparable way to other countries. As they say: ‘there are liars, dam liars and statisticians‘. The UK’s population density is also different (much higher and hence more transmission paths per head of population) from other countries and adherence to Government instructions has been variable here and better in some other places. I wouldn’t dispute that things could have been better - with hindsight someone will always be happy to say how things could have been done better - and that Boris was too reluctant to suspend civil liberties and business activities. IMHO the shut down should have been phased in two weeks earlier and mass sport and social gatherings stoped straight away.

I could give a very long, and continuing, list of areas where the government transparently made the wrong call - I agree with the two you make but there are many, many, more.

But I do not at all agree that comparisons are invalid. There is essentially no doubt that the uk is at the summit of developed world countries death tolls. This is not some accident, it is a direct result of government policy.

[roubaixtuesday]

Objectively one has always to ask "who is asking the question and what is their angle?" Then, the answer is pretty clear. Anti Brexit, anti Tory, anti UK folk will always pick nits and try to do Britain down. Its pretty clear that several foriegn governments have lied through their teeth whereas the UKs thorough rigourous honesty has done us no favours. Another case of the usual suspects...

Al

More people have died here than any other developed country.

This is not "nit picking"

This has nothing whatsoever to do with "usual suspects"

These are people's lives cut short. 60,000 plus of them.

Lessons are not being learned from the mistakes made to date precisely because of the attempt by the govt to deny or avoid this reality rather than act on the learning. More lives will be lost, and more damage done to our welfare and economy, as a result.

[reohn2]

.......... There is essentially no doubt that the uk is at the summit of developed world countries death tolls. This is not some accident, it is a direct result of government policy.

Exactly,how could it not be when they were so slow to react to a pandemic sweeping the continent and still allowing flights in from those countries without any quarrantine precautions as well as allowing large gathering such as footbal matches and race meetings?
Though there are those who'll say many other countries(China apart)aren't telling the truth on death tolls but the UK is,when it attempted to brucpsh care home deaths under the carpet until the noises weere too loud to ignore.

[mjr]

As they say: ‘there are liars, dam liars and statisticians‘. The UK’s population density is also different (much higher and hence more transmission paths per head of population) from other countries

No, they say "figures can't lie but liars can figure" because in reality, the UK's population density isn't "much higher" but only 7th highest in Europe. I know this upsets the anti-anti-British mob, but the UK is not that unusual except in its single-issue minority-elected executive.

and adherence to Government instructions has been variable here and better in some other places.

And that is in part due to the UK government appearing variously unreasoned, partial (soft approach to horse racing when the health minister is funded by Tattersall's, for example) and random.

I wouldn’t dispute that things could have been better -

Well, that's something we can agree on!

[al_yrpal]

60,000 have died here and the number of new infections continues to be massive. From my own observations there are many people around who have never cared a fig about the virus or about their behavior and that is the reason why we have such a high death toll. It is about individual responsibility. In my 70s just walking down Fore Street or going to a large supermarket is a no no for me. Our Bulgarian guest workers are the worst offenders and as a result the virus has swept through the local 2 Sisters chicken processing plant where they work. They gather in large groups on Fore Street blocking the pavement or in the park with impunity. The police do nothing. Whilst the government was slow to impose restrictions its individuals that need to change their behavior. Its not over yet and it wont be if things are relaxed further.

Al

[roubaixtuesday]

60,000 have died here and the number of new infections continues to be massive. From my own observations there are many people around who have never cared a fig about the virus or about their behavior and that is the reason why we have such a high death toll. It is about individual responsibility. In my 70s just walking down Fore Street or going to a large supermarket is a no no for me. Our Bulgarian guest workers are the worst offenders and as a result the virus has swept through the local 2 Sisters chicken processing plant where they work. They gather in large groups on Fore Street blocking the pavement or in the park with impunity. The police do nothing. Whilst the government was slow to impose restrictions its individuals that need to change their behavior. Its not over yet and it wont be if things are relaxed further.

Al

Your thesis is that people in the UK have less "individual responsibility" than anywhere else in the world and that explains our death toll?