Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

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francovendee
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby francovendee » 22 Jun 2020, 10:31am

High rate of infections in abattoirs across many countries, maybe the Bulgarians caught it at work.
Low temperatures and close proximity to fellow workers in many meat processing plants is a more likely cause than nationality.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby al_yrpal » 22 Jun 2020, 10:36am

francovendee wrote:High rate of infections in abattoirs across many countries, maybe the Bulgarians caught it at work.
Low temperatures and close proximity to fellow workers in many meat processing plants is a more likely cause than nationality.


I think its their culture and perhaps lack of English in understanding the rules. Apparently in Bulgaria its quite normal to gather in large groups out on the street outside working hours. The plant management have been tearing their hair out trying to get their workers to conform. A 2 Sisters meat processing plant in North Wales has been closed down because the virus was rife. Is the meat contaminated? Who knows?
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francovendee
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby francovendee » 22 Jun 2020, 10:53am

I've no knowledge of the plant or it's management so can't comment on the workforce.
We have seasonal workers here and during the summer a local farm (owned by Riverford foods) employs many Eastern European nationals. The manager is a personal friend and the subject of language and following instructions is something we've spoken about. Her approach is to deal with a person who has reasonable French who in turn tells the rest what to do.
It's not about nationality but how properly to manage people. I see your case as a classic example of bad management.

landsurfer
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby landsurfer » 22 Jun 2020, 10:54am

We've taken individual responsibility from the start.
With 4 children we have been unable to keep them cooped up as we don't think it's appropriate, it's bad enough for them being off school.
I've been working full time throughout, travelling around the UK. I usually take our eldest (16) with me. No overnights, but weekly trips to Stoke, Bristol, Bournemouth, Newcastle. The middle 2 (10 and eight) are out for walks every day ... but mostly cycling ... their preference.
We meet people on paths and everyone is polite and good humoured ....
Masks are a rare sight here in South Yorks outside Sheffield and after their imposition on public transport most of our friends that used the bus and train just drive instead.
Our local Aldi has queues the full length of the building, strict 1in / 1 out and no packing in the shop but the Aldi at Eastwood has no restrictions or queues .... so we shop there ....
A worrying number of my companies suppliers closed down as soon as the Government put restrictions in place, forcing us to find alternative suppliers. We will not return to the original suppliers now they have reopened, we need a resilient supply chain ....
A family bubble was established early on between our friends 4 doors away and their 3 children allowing us to swap children now and again ....
And all of us are well .....
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al_yrpal
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby al_yrpal » 22 Jun 2020, 11:05am

francovendee wrote:I've no knowledge of the plant or it's management so can't comment on the workforce.
We have seasonal workers here and during the summer a local farm (owned by Riverford foods) employs many Eastern European nationals. The manager is a personal friend and the subject of language and following instructions is something we've spoken about. Her approach is to deal with a person who has reasonable French who in turn tells the rest what to do.
It's not about nationality but how properly to manage people. I see your case as a classic example of bad management.


In this town we have a Police Liason officer who speaks the Lingo. She and the plant management have been doing their best to no avail. There have been multiple infections. We wont buy chicken that has been processed in the plant and we avoid the groups of people from multiple households by crossing the street. Its all we can do.

Al
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francovendee
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby francovendee » 22 Jun 2020, 11:55am

If the staff have been spoken to then a threat of dismissal would come next if rules at work weren't followed.
I wonder if management are reluctant to fire anyone as this sort of work isn't appealing to anyone other than Eastern European workers. Finding English speaking workers willing to do the job may be impossible.
I still think it's failure of management to get the message across.
I'm sure closure of the plant and the loss of their jobs would bridge the language barrier.
As I said earlier up thread I don't know the plant but from the information You've supplied this would be my action.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby al_yrpal » 22 Jun 2020, 1:21pm

The 2 Sisters meat processing plant on Angelsea has just been on the BBC lunchtime News. They have had to close it due to a mass virus breakout. The plant has been closed and 560 people have been sent home to self isolate for 2 weeks.

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Paulatic
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby Paulatic » 22 Jun 2020, 1:26pm

al_yrpal wrote:The 2 Sisters meat processing plant on Angelsea has just been on the BBC lunchtime News. They have had to close it due to a mass virus breakout. The plant has been closed and 560 people have been sent home to self isolate for 2 weeks.


There have been a number of meat plants hit with infection including Germany. Hence my comment this morning.
It seems the virus thrives in a meat processing environment whether it’s the temperature or something else we’ve yet to find out.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby al_yrpal » 22 Jun 2020, 2:32pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Your thesis is that people in the UK have less "individual responsibility" than anywhere else in the world and that explains our death toll?


I never said "anywhere else in the world" you said that. Usual suspect following usual suspect behavior.. Yes, I do think we have a problem. Its noticable that nations that are well known for following the rules have done much better. Its a great cop out to blame every bad thing on 'the government' or Brexit.

Al
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 22 Jun 2020, 2:47pm

al_yrpal wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Your thesis is that people in the UK have less "individual responsibility" than anywhere else in the world and that explains our death toll?


I never said "anywhere else in the world" you said that. Usual suspect following usual suspect behavior.. Yes, I do think we have a problem. Its noticable that nations that are well known for following the rules have done much better. Its a great cop out to blame every bad thing on 'the government' or Brexit.

Al


Our death toll is higher than anywhere else in the world, so if it's caused by "individual responsibility" then logically you must feel we're less responsible than anywhere else? Or have I misunderstood?

What do you think causes us to be so uniquely irresponsible?

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al_yrpal
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby al_yrpal » 22 Jun 2020, 3:26pm

Well, we are following most recommendations laws and practices adopted elsewhere. We started late, we didnt track and trace either, we have a larger pool of vulnerable than many places and these deficiencies added to the fact that large sections of the population have publicly consistently flouted the rules. These deficiencies have all added up to a large death toll. However, particularly with regard to China and some other countries I just dont believe the figures. Say the wrong thing there and one can end up like this...

20200331_135030.jpg


Perhaps your mentorees can translate? (Taken in my prescence 1984)

Al
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 22 Jun 2020, 3:47pm

al_yrpal wrote:Well, we are following most recommendations laws and practices adopted elsewhere. We started late, we didnt track and trace either, we have a larger pool of vulnerable than many places and these deficiencies added to the fact that large sections of the population have publicly consistently flouted the rules. These deficiencies have all added up to a large death toll. However, particularly with regard to China and some other countries I just dont believe the figures. Say the wrong thing there and one can end up like this...

20200331_135030.jpg

Perhaps your mentorees can translate? (Taken in my prescence 1984)

Al


I speak with people in China almost daily - I was talking to a colleague in Shanghai just this morning.

I don't believe anything the China government says without good reason, but there's no way they're hiding a mass nationwide outbreak. It would be impossible.

I'm now very confused by what you're saying regarding the uk response. It's no longer clear if you think our uniquely bad position is due to a "individual responsibility" being particularly poor here or not.

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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby al_yrpal » 22 Jun 2020, 4:03pm

I believe that our collective misdemeanors are a significant factor. Its all been seen on TV and in our streets for weeks. Talking to people in our cities its been really difficult to distance themselves from others. Although enforcement with our sparse Policing is obviously very difficult, there is the matter of individual responsibility.

The way the Chinese outbreak was suddenly solved was ridiculous. Epidemics dont end like that.

Al
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Paulatic
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby Paulatic » 22 Jun 2020, 4:19pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:I'm now very confused by what you're saying regarding the uk response. It's no longer clear if you think our uniquely bad position is due to a "individual responsibility" being particularly poor here or not.


Can we also clarify between UK and other nations response please. Non of us could lock down until the UK signalled it. After that point it’s been down to nations responses. Here in Scotland today we’re down to 11 new cases a day and 98% of tests proving negative. The figure for UK new cases is 958. If the UK population is around 10 times that of Scotland if the English government was doing so well then wouldn’t that total UK figure be around 150?
I’d really like to close the border now and only allow essential travel over it. :D
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Do we need to take individual responsibility for Covid prevention measures?

Postby roubaixtuesday » 22 Jun 2020, 4:23pm

al_yrpal wrote:I believe that our collective misdemeanors are a significant factor. Its all been seen on TV and in our streets for weeks. Talking to people in our cities its been really difficult to distance themselves from others. Although enforcement with our sparse Policing is obviously very difficult, there is the matter of individual responsibility.

The way the Chinese outbreak was suddenly solved was ridiculous. Epidemics dont end like that.

Al


Why do you believe our "individual responsibility" is worse than elsewhere?

On China, the suppression of the pandemic is entirely compatible with the actions taken; they imposed a brutal lockdown and modelling of deaths is consistent with what would be expected. It was not solved "suddenly" and the Chinese don't claim that. I also don't know why you concentrate on China. Why are we worse than Italy? Germany? Greece? Denmark?

There are very cogent reasons why this is so:

1. Inconsistent messages from the top throughout
2. Herd immunity strategy at the start, something no other country contemplated
3. Lack of PPE
4. Failure to ramp up testing
5. Abandonment of testing
6. Releases of elderly from hospitals to care homes.

and now...

7. Politically driven desire to ease measures with higher infection rates than attempted elsewhere
8. App failure
9. Centralised call centre approach to track and trace
10. Lack of leadership on face covering
etc

Our country's handling of this has been catastrophically bad. There's no evidence I can see that our people are irresponsible, quite the opposite, the government on issue after issue has followed where the people have led rather than the other way around.