Do you really want to go to heaven?

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simonineaston
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby simonineaston » 30 Jun 2020, 8:26am

My condolences, al_yrpal
I remember my parents' funeral services with fondness - as a committed aethesit, I respected what I guessed would be their wishes, as they had been church goers all their lives, and both services were a comfort and to all their friends and aquaintences - and to me, of course. Where they are now depends on who you ask, of course!
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

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NUKe
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby NUKe » 30 Jun 2020, 9:57am

Al So sorry for your lose. Hope you managed to say goodbye in the way you wanted.
NUKe
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drossall
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby drossall » 30 Jun 2020, 8:20pm

irc wrote:Does it not depend which guidebook you have read on heaven?

It certainly does. There's a strong argument emerging that the classic idea of heaven on a cloud comes more from Greek writers and thought than the Bible, which takes a rather more wholistic view of the material and spiritual worlds. Not quite sure about the cycling that the OP is seeking, but you never know.

mercalia wrote:Seems like Christianity is in deep trouble. And is doing nothing about it?

What like reinventing ideas to play the numbers game? Not sure that's what it's all about. Though whether your premise is right also depends on which book you read, it seems. This Wikipedia article gives you quite a few different perspectives to start with.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby Tangled Metal » 30 Jun 2020, 9:40pm

Isn't it 28 virgins in one tradition. It's rather 28 women with a bit of experience not virgins personally. Besides the only virgins are likely to be very young, very old or religious. Not my idea of heaven.

Surely heaven is about fulfillment of your spiritual needs not physical needs. But without knowing the meaning of life (42 as the joke goes) you are unlikely to know what those needs are.

If you look at all the holy men and religious leaders, who I assume would reach heaven, I'm not sure heaven will be much better than hell? Look to the history of Christianity like the various pope's who passed it down through the family as a hereditary title or who sold papal services to keep a life of plenty. Burning of heretics. Some very dodgy rules passed down by men to keep their power. All these done by popes who probably became saints and who are likely in Christian heaven. One crusade, isn't that the admission price to heaven? No matter what else you do you're in so those people aren't going to necessarily be nice people to spend eternity with.

Just glad I don't believe in that tripe. I die I'm not around in any form. My body might become dust or earth but I won't exist.

drossall
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby drossall » 30 Jun 2020, 10:15pm

Gosh that was a right amalgam, wasn't it. Not surprised you're confused :D

Tangled Metal
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby Tangled Metal » 30 Jun 2020, 11:31pm

Not confused just trying to point out how stupid it all is. If you are that scared of ceasing to exist such that you make things up, then try living better to put it off a little but you can't avoid the oblivion of death.

drossall
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby drossall » 30 Jun 2020, 11:41pm

Well if you mix a trike, an ordinary and a motorbike, you'll probably be on good grounds for showing how stupid two wheelers are. One of them not even being a two-wheeler and all :D

mercalia
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby mercalia » 1 Jul 2020, 9:20am

drossall wrote:
irc wrote:Does it not depend which guidebook you have read on heaven?

It certainly does. There's a strong argument emerging that the classic idea of heaven on a cloud comes more from Greek writers and thought than the Bible, which takes a rather more wholistic view of the material and spiritual worlds. Not quite sure about the cycling that the OP is seeking, but you never know.

mercalia wrote:Seems like Christianity is in deep trouble. And is doing nothing about it?

What like reinventing ideas to play the numbers game? Not sure that's what it's all about. Though whether your premise is right also depends on which book you read, it seems. This Wikipedia article gives you quite a few different perspectives to start with.


Well my comment is as much about the intellectual basis rather than numbers.
Well the number of stupid/ignorant people in the world out weighs the number of intelligent ones. And that article seems to suggest they are breeding like rabbits. I remember watching a tv programme on Catholicism and in particular an Irish theologian who said some thing like - get people to believe absurd things ( and the R.Cs are into that?) and then you have GOT THEM! ( his emphasis), meaning they lose all capacity to evaluate matters of faith. The programme commentator went on to say that up and coming priests in seminaries dont believe any of that stuff ( virgin birth, resurrection etc) and write it of as " well thats a mystery". I think a lot of what is called Christianity was invented by later( medieval) european pagan converts and got tied up with social control as in eg the divine right of kings? But when you take it all away all you are left with is a set of morals that are not unique any more?

drossall
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby drossall » 1 Jul 2020, 1:28pm

Depends which bits you take away. As I think you're deciding which bits that should be, you can end up with almost anything you like?

I'm not enthused by the idea of defining everyone who disagrees with me as stupid, so I won't go down that route. You'd have to define your criteria for "stupid" pretty carefully anyway, to include and exclude all the "right" people.

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Syd
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby Syd » 1 Jul 2020, 1:33pm

There is no heaven or hell and this is not a dress rehearsal.

Make the most of it while you can.

thirdcrank
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Jul 2020, 1:39pm

While I believe there's no afterlife, Heaven and Hell, particularly Hell exist on Earth.

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simonineaston
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby simonineaston » 1 Jul 2020, 1:48pm

Recall that the concept of an after-life originated a very long time ago, back when life itself was a bit [inappropriate word removed] (as in: grow corn, eat corn, sleep, repeat). Recall too that the elite quickly cottoned on to the notion that the promise of an after-life was a great tool in keeping The Great Unwashed under control. Since printing and science were invented, sensible modern folks will have read enough to realise that both aspects are a con.
ttfn, Simon in Easton
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby Tangled Metal » 1 Jul 2020, 2:50pm

drossall wrote:Depends which bits you take away. As I think you're deciding which bits that should be, you can end up with almost anything you like?

I'm not enthused by the idea of defining everyone who disagrees with me as stupid, so I won't go down that route. You'd have to define your criteria for "stupid" pretty carefully anyway, to include and exclude all the "right" people.

I'm not either but I do call it all stupid. The doctrine and practices of religion. Some very clever people get sucked into religion but I don't think believing in a religion can automatically mark you as stupid.

It's the stupidity of the arguments that turned me away from religion. The clock in the desert argument one among many. I had a evangelical type as form teacher during my A level years. Being a grammar we were all bright enough to put his religious stuff in its place. Some very good public debaters who ran rings round his religious proselytising habits. Still, a very good educator in chemistry, maths and religious education. Well the last one he never taught me. Head of RE taught my class and he had a second job as a parish vicar. He was more open to different religions and lack of beliefs too.

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simonineaston
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby simonineaston » 1 Jul 2020, 3:11pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Some very clever people get sucked into religion.
Another thing to remember is the way the human mind is constructed. Intelligence doesn't make you immune to the attractions of fervant belief, witness the sort of people who fall prey to all sorts of other addictions. Following an organised religion has all sorts of pluses, making doing so attractive to all sorts of humans. 'Cos of the way our brains are put together, there are a lot of comforting benefts to be found in going to church (synagog/temple/mosque...) - it just adds a bit of solidity if you believe, or persuade yourself that you do...
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

mercalia
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Re: Do you really want to go to heaven?

Postby mercalia » 1 Jul 2020, 3:21pm

an interesting BBC 4 programme from quite a few years ago. Some might find what is said upsetting or offensive



not good visual quality but its the talk thats important.

Important to hear the view of some experts on the gospels, where I got the above remarks from.

The only shame is the Irish theologian at the end who cops out of the matter?

That a congregation on Easter Sunday being told that J. is amongst us dont expect to find him sitting in the pew next door - of course not they have been so indoctrinated to leave their brains at the door as I think he said earlier to not think anything, mindlessness? So in the end he turns Christian Theology into I know not what, (a secret? )to save his own skin and life long study of what turns out to be a fiction?