White Working class Boys left behind

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Carlton green
Posts: 774
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby Carlton green » 17 Jul 2020, 9:37pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Carlton green wrote:Anyone who really wants to understand the routes of racial prejudice needs to look back to the 50’s and onwards from there to see how migrants have displaced and undercut white working class people in the jobs market. They then need to understand how communities have been torn apart and had their local traditions smashed by the introduction of alien cultures and religions from overseas.

That’s the hard truth of it and, to be frank, black lives do not (or rather should not) matter more than white lives - personally I judge people on their personal merit and not their skin colour. Equality is a wonderful thing but in general it’s a convince for the wealthy (and the misguided middle class) to tell the poor that they must be nice to the people that have been imported or positioned to control wages. Why do I say that it’s the truth, well I was brought up in such economic times and circumstances. Times were not always easy and there was an unskilled labour shortage but labour wages were kept low by importing bodies from overseas and sod the social consequences (of which there were ever so many and they were also very large!).


Classic. "These other poor people are responsible for your poverty. Vote Tory/Brexit/ other group actually responsible for your poverty"


The only thing that’s classic here is your ‘peg on nose distain’ for other people’s views and total lack of understanding (or wanting to understand) about the lives of others. As regards voting the Labour Party has let White Working Class people down so very badly and over so many years, hence they voted Tory at the last election and they voted for Brexit too. The Labour Party have had the power to stop the route causes for racial tensions (‘white’ resentment) and instead of coming down really hard on migration (which can and does adversely affect indigenous working class people) they chose to chase ethnic and migrant votes instead. They wilfully ignored the pain of white working class people, took their votes for granted and have done so for decades.

It really is time that we took on board the fact that ‘white lives DO matter’, stopped having some guilt trip about colour and accepted that migration has consequences some of which are awful for the indigenous people. Before you start to call me a racists or any other discrediting names understand that I grew up with and worked with very many people of colour and am also related to some people of colour too - very nice they are too. As such I’m far from unqualified to speak on the importance of recognising that White Lives Matter and how exceedingly damaging mass migration can be.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 3134
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby roubaixtuesday » 17 Jul 2020, 10:05pm

Carlton green wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Carlton green wrote:Anyone who really wants to understand the routes of racial prejudice needs to look back to the 50’s and onwards from there to see how migrants have displaced and undercut white working class people in the jobs market. They then need to understand how communities have been torn apart and had their local traditions smashed by the introduction of alien cultures and religions from overseas.

That’s the hard truth of it and, to be frank, black lives do not (or rather should not) matter more than white lives - personally I judge people on their personal merit and not their skin colour. Equality is a wonderful thing but in general it’s a convince for the wealthy (and the misguided middle class) to tell the poor that they must be nice to the people that have been imported or positioned to control wages. Why do I say that it’s the truth, well I was brought up in such economic times and circumstances. Times were not always easy and there was an unskilled labour shortage but labour wages were kept low by importing bodies from overseas and sod the social consequences (of which there were ever so many and they were also very large!).


Classic. "These other poor people are responsible for your poverty. Vote Tory/Brexit/ other group actually responsible for your poverty"


The only thing that’s classic here is your ‘peg on nose distain’ for other people’s views and total lack of understanding (or wanting to understand) about the lives of others. As regards voting the Labour Party has let White Working Class people down so very badly and over so many years, hence they voted Tory at the last election and they voted for Brexit too. The Labour Party have had the power to stop the route causes for racial tensions (‘white’ resentment) and instead of coming down really hard on migration (which can and does adversely affect indigenous working class people) they chose to chase ethnic and migrant votes instead. They wilfully ignored the pain of white working class people, took their votes for granted and have done so for decades.

It really is time that we took on board the fact that ‘white lives DO matter’, stopped having some guilt trip about colour and accepted that migration has consequences some of which are awful for the indigenous people. Before you start to call me a racists or any other discrediting names understand that I grew up with and worked with very many people of colour and am also related to some people of colour too - very nice they are too. As such I’m far from unqualified to speak on the importance of recognising that White Lives Matter and how exceedingly damaging mass migration can be.


Good grief. Nobody's called you anything, least of all a racist.

pwa
Posts: 12480
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby pwa » 18 Jul 2020, 10:20am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Wrong there Carlton, black people were brought to do jobs white people did not want, maybe ensuring structural unemployment was involved too

I am or was a White Middle-Class Boy, like nearly all of this parish, one imagines (except the WMCG Girls)

It is less clear cut than that. My mother worked in a cotton mill in the 50s. Indian / Pakistani migrants started to be employed in her mill, with the existing employees training them to do the work. Then when they were trained, the old white workforce was sacked and the wages were reduced for the new, Asian workforce. You can't blame the Asians, and you have to feel for the old white workforce who were displaced. Perhaps we should blame the mill owners, but they were trying to reduce costs in the face of increasing foreign competition.

This is ancient history now and I'm more interested in how we move forward, as people with different backgrounds who need to live together.

Carlton green
Posts: 774
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby Carlton green » 18 Jul 2020, 11:22am

pwa wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Wrong there Carlton, black people were brought to do jobs white people did not want, maybe ensuring structural unemployment was involved too

I am or was a White Middle-Class Boy, like nearly all of this parish, one imagines (except the WMCG Girls)


It is less clear cut than that. My mother worked in a cotton mill in the 50s. Indian / Pakistani migrants started to be employed in her mill, with the existing employees training them to do the work. Then when they were trained, the old white workforce was sacked and the wages were reduced for the new, Asian workforce. You can't blame the Asians, and you have to feel for the old white workforce who were displaced. Perhaps we should blame the mill owners, but they were trying to reduce costs in the face of increasing foreign competition.

This is ancient history now and I'm more interested in how we move forward, as people with different backgrounds who need to live together.


I wouldn’t regard it as ancient history but rather understanding the root causes of antagonism from white working class people to others. That understanding is important and still relevant today: the lives effected are important and there was a lasting knock on to their families too, additionally that model of cheap imported labour continues today and damages society.

The Asian people came here to better themselves, predominantly they were economic migrants and the users of their cheaper labour made good savings on the cost of displaced indigenous working class folk. The mills were kept open for some decades but they have virtually all closed now and the economic migrants didn’t return to their native countries but rather put down financial roots here instead. Typically they didn’t integrate with the local populations and a very large portion of them never learnt learnt to speak English. Overall those migrants have been disruptive and destroying off, a drain on and a disadvantage to the the communities into which they were parachuted into - someone would have to be fairly uncaring not to sympathise with those communities - whilst the wealthy made money on the back of migration.

White lives matter and the proper and full recognition of that is one of the ways forward towards harmony.

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Syd
Posts: 523
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby Syd » 18 Jul 2020, 11:51am

I am in the middle of recruiting an Indian national for my workforce. The post has been vacant for a significant period of time and has more than surpassed the resident labour market test requirements.

This is not a poorly paid job, with the salary set under Agenda for Change, but it has been impossible for some time to recruit from the local market.

Colleges and Universities are not teaching the appropriate subjects and the route through which I, and many colleagues, gained relevant skills to enter the occupation have disappeared in the UK over that past few decades.

Where I worked previously less that one third of the team were white British.

pwa
Posts: 12480
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: WWBLM ( White Middle-Class Boys Lives Matter)

Postby pwa » 18 Jul 2020, 12:01pm

Carlton green wrote:
pwa wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Wrong there Carlton, black people were brought to do jobs white people did not want, maybe ensuring structural unemployment was involved too

I am or was a White Middle-Class Boy, like nearly all of this parish, one imagines (except the WMCG Girls)


It is less clear cut than that. My mother worked in a cotton mill in the 50s. Indian / Pakistani migrants started to be employed in her mill, with the existing employees training them to do the work. Then when they were trained, the old white workforce was sacked and the wages were reduced for the new, Asian workforce. You can't blame the Asians, and you have to feel for the old white workforce who were displaced. Perhaps we should blame the mill owners, but they were trying to reduce costs in the face of increasing foreign competition.

This is ancient history now and I'm more interested in how we move forward, as people with different backgrounds who need to live together.


I wouldn’t regard it as ancient history but rather understanding the root causes of antagonism from white working class people to others. That understanding is important and still relevant today: the lives effected are important and there was a lasting knock on to their families too, additionally that model of cheap imported labour continues today and damages society.

The Asian people came here to better themselves, predominantly they were economic migrants and the users of their cheaper labour made good savings on the cost of displaced indigenous working class folk. The mills were kept open for some decades but they have virtually all closed now and the economic migrants didn’t return to their native countries but rather put down financial roots here instead. Typically they didn’t integrate with the local populations and a very large portion of them never learnt learnt to speak English. Overall those migrants have been disruptive and destroying off, a drain on and a disadvantage to the the communities into which they were parachuted into - someone would have to be fairly uncaring not to sympathise with those communities - whilst the wealthy made money on the back of migration.

White lives matter and the proper and full recognition of that is one of the ways forward towards harmony
.

I was nodding in agreement until I got to that last bit. The Asian migrants were pawns in a world economy they had no control over, just like the white working class they ending up living alongside. They stuck together to survive and feel secure, which is an impilse all of us should be able to understand. But the lack of integration is a problem, and it is something that needs addressing. Many towns have ethnic ghettos, and that simply can't be good for any of us.

Poor and under-educated people face challenges regardless of their ethnicity, but if you are poor, under-educated and from a racial minority you have one extra hurdle to face, on top of all the others. Can't we try to deal with that, at the same time as dealing with the issues that affect all poor communities?

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 3134
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Jul 2020, 12:13pm

Overall those migrants have been disruptive and destroying off, a drain on and a disadvantage to the the communities into which they were parachuted into - someone would have to be fairly uncaring not to sympathise with those communities -


This theory can be tested by looking at communities which are still predominately white British but whose economy also took a significant hit.

Ex mining communities are a great example.

Have these done better than similar communities with significant inward migration?

No.

I have every sympathy with communities whose economic raison d'être has been removed. Indeed, both my parents come from such*. Immigration, however, is not to blame.

*A community which actually had mass immigration in its heyday, resulting in a family heritage including Dutch, Norwegian and Italian.

Carlton green
Posts: 774
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: WWBLM ( White Middle-Class Boys Lives Matter)

Postby Carlton green » 18 Jul 2020, 3:24pm

pwa wrote:
Carlton green wrote:
pwa wrote:
It is less clear cut than that. My mother worked in a cotton mill in the 50s. Indian / Pakistani migrants started to be employed in her mill, with the existing employees training them to do the work. Then when they were trained, the old white workforce was sacked and the wages were reduced for the new, Asian workforce. You can't blame the Asians, and you have to feel for the old white workforce who were displaced. Perhaps we should blame the mill owners, but they were trying to reduce costs in the face of increasing foreign competition.

This is ancient history now and I'm more interested in how we move forward, as people with different backgrounds who need to live together.


I wouldn’t regard it as ancient history but rather understanding the root causes of antagonism from white working class people to others. That understanding is important and still relevant today: the lives effected are important and there was a lasting knock on to their families too, additionally that model of cheap imported labour continues today and damages society.

The Asian people came here to better themselves, predominantly they were economic migrants and the users of their cheaper labour made good savings on the cost of displaced indigenous working class folk. The mills were kept open for some decades but they have virtually all closed now and the economic migrants didn’t return to their native countries but rather put down financial roots here instead. Typically they didn’t integrate with the local populations and a very large portion of them never learnt learnt to speak English. Overall those migrants have been disruptive and destroying off, a drain on and a disadvantage to the the communities into which they were parachuted into - someone would have to be fairly uncaring not to sympathise with those communities - whilst the wealthy made money on the back of migration.

White lives matter and the proper and full recognition of that is one of the ways forward towards harmony
.

I was nodding in agreement until I got to that last bit. The Asian migrants were pawns in a world economy they had no control over, just like the white working class they ending up living alongside. They stuck together to survive and feel secure, which is an impilse all of us should be able to understand. But the lack of integration is a problem, and it is something that needs addressing. Many towns have ethnic ghettos, and that simply can't be good for any of us.

Poor and under-educated people face challenges regardless of their ethnicity, but if you are poor, under-educated and from a racial minority you have one extra hurdle to face, on top of all the others. Can't we try to deal with that, at the same time as dealing with the issues that affect all poor communities?


I sense quite a lot of common ground In your response and a good deal of pragmatic common sense.

Economic migrants are to an extent pawns in a World Economy and to some large extent they are willing Pawns, but to an extent we are all Pawns dancing to the tunes called by Masters of commerce - it was ever thus. Integration or rather lack of it is one of the most destructive issues and here we have something that migrants are largely responsible for in that that they do not use English as their first language and have retained their own cultures and traditions rather than adopting indigenous British ones. If you come to Britain it should be to become essentially British, IIRC the Germans have a better handle on this issue than us in that they insist that migrants (from outside of the EU) integrate and attend lessons to do so.

Yes the poor and undereducated face hurdles and being of a non-British background might be a disadvantage. However it’s something other than being non-British that is the factor and it has been established over some time. If you’re North American, Western European or from Australia or Newzealand you’re unlikely to have issues, you’re perceived as people like us and folk that will fit in. There are reasons why migrants from other places simply aren’t seen in the same positive way and the migrants are responsible for those reasons, as such they (as a group) have made hurdles for themselves. Several decades back this country also sore waves of migrations from Italian, Polish and Irish people; I’ve barely seen any discrimination against them and they have integrated whilst still quietly keeping parts of their own cultural heritage.

What is to be done? Well first recognition that white lives matter and that complaints are justified must happen. After that migrants must be clear that they have two alternatives, to either become part of the society to which they moved or to move on to another one in a different country. Part of that integration means them adjusting lifestyles and personal values to match indigenous ones. Of course from the fifties we have seen the children of migrants be born in this country, receive an education here and take on many Western European ways. Historic and family values still persist for very many though and hence honour killings and forced marriage are not abnormal - horrific practices and completely alien to U.K. culture. Really the bulk of the solution lies within the control of the migrant people’s, they need to change themselves and in doing so the barriers they face will eventually diminish and disappear.

slowster
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Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby slowster » 18 Jul 2020, 3:46pm

Carlton green wrote: Really the bulk of the solution lies within the control of the migrant people’s, they need to change themselves and in doing so the barriers they face will eventually diminish and disappear.

A specious argument to which which history and experience elsewhere gives the lie. That solution has not worked for black people in the USA, and 'fitting in' didn't work for Jews in Germany and occupied Europe in WW2, nor for hundreds of years before.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 3134
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: WWBLM ( White Middle-Class Boys Lives Matter)

Postby roubaixtuesday » 18 Jul 2020, 3:48pm

Carlton green wrote:.

What is to be done? Well first recognition that white lives matter



Well, that's easy! Absolutely noone has ever said otherwise.

Now that's sorted we can move on to...

Carlton green wrote:
After that migrants must be clear that they have two alternatives, to either become part of the society to which they moved or to move on to another one in a different country. Part of that integration means them adjusting lifestyles and personal values to match indigenous ones.


Fascinating.

Who will sit in judgment on your personal values Carlton?

What if it were me, and I found you lacking?

To which country should you be banished?

reohn2
Posts: 39659
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby reohn2 » 18 Jul 2020, 3:52pm

Three years ago I had a hip replacement at Wrightington Hospital near Wigan.
The consultant surgeon who performed the operation was second generation Indian and spoke with a broad Blackburn accent.
His second in command who assisted with the operation(it wasn't straight forward as i already had steelwork in the neck of the femur) was second generation Polish
The anaesthetist was an Indian doctor,she was 70 years old a Hindu who spoke with an Indian accent, and told me she loved her job.
The two charge nurses on 12 hours days and nights on the ward where I was,were both African.Both came to the UK as teenagers to escape wars in their own countries,one from Angola,I forget the other's country of origin,both worked hard to learn the language and work their way up to the top of their profession.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

ANTONISH
Posts: 1835
Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 9:49am

Re: WWBLM ( White Middle-Class Boys Lives Matter)

Postby ANTONISH » 18 Jul 2020, 4:38pm

Carlton green wrote:
pwa wrote:I was nodding in agreement until I got to that last bit. The Asian migrants were pawns in a world economy they had no control over, just like the white working class they ending up living alongside. They stuck together to survive and feel secure, which is an impilse all of us should be able to understand. But the lack of integration is a problem, and it is something that needs addressing. Many towns have ethnic ghettos, and that simply can't be good for any of us.

Poor and under-educated people face challenges regardless of their ethnicity, but if you are poor, under-educated and from a racial minority you have one extra hurdle to face, on top of all the others. Can't we try to deal with that, at the same time as dealing with the issues that affect all poor communities?


I sense quite a lot of common ground In your response and a good deal of pragmatic common sense.

Economic migrants are to an extent pawns in a World Economy and to some large extent they are willing Pawns, but to an extent we are all Pawns dancing to the tunes called by Masters of commerce - it was ever thus. Integration or rather lack of it is one of the most destructive issues and here we have something that migrants are largely responsible for in that that they do not use English as their first language and have retained their own cultures and traditions rather than adopting indigenous British ones. If you come to Britain it should be to become essentially British, IIRC the Germans have a better handle on this issue than us in that they insist that migrants (from outside of the EU) integrate and attend lessons to do so.

Yes the poor and undereducated face hurdles and being of a non-British background might be a disadvantage. However it’s something other than being non-British that is the factor and it has been established over some time. If you’re North American, Western European or from Australia or Newzealand you’re unlikely to have issues, you’re perceived as people like us and folk that will fit in. There are reasons why migrants from other places simply aren’t seen in the same positive way and the migrants are responsible for those reasons, as such they (as a group) have made hurdles for themselves. Several decades back this country also sore waves of migrations from Italian, Polish and Irish people; I’ve barely seen any discrimination against them and they have integrated whilst still quietly keeping parts of their own cultural heritage.

What is to be done? Well first recognition that white lives matter and that complaints are justified must happen. After that migrants must be clear that they have two alternatives, to either become part of the society to which they moved or to move on to another one in a different country. Part of that integration means them adjusting lifestyles and personal values to match indigenous ones. Of course from the fifties we have seen the children of migrants be born in this country, receive an education here and take on many Western European ways. Historic and family values still persist for very many though and hence honour killings and forced marriage are not abnormal - horrific practices and completely alien to U.K. culture. Really the bulk of the solution lies within the control of the migrant people’s, they need to change themselves and in doing so the barriers they face will eventually diminish and disappear.


There is quite a lot there - some of which I agree with.
Perhaps you are too young to remember but the Irish were discriminated against - hence notices in lodging house "No Blacks, No Irish No Dogs"
I was listening to the farming programme on the BBC this morning.
Apparently one reason that east european workers are preferred is that they are easier to coerce into accepting unsafe and unhygienic working conditions without defined working hours. The minimum wage is considered too high and there is a de facto "bonus system".
Also they can be accommodated in sub standard conditions - British workers aren't going to live on site and be readily available. I don't think the accommodation is free. There are a number of so called "gang -masters" who can deliver a subservient workforce.
Still it keeps the fruit and veg on the supermarket shelves.
Not all farmers are party to these things and some employ direct the same people every year.

Afro - Caribbean immigrants generally speak English - usually as a first language - so I don't think that is a reason for lack of integration.
I had the impression that this group were well integrated but deprivation and unemployment have in recent years caused disaffection especially among the young - that also applies to the mainly white youth of the old industrial communities - so I'd suggest that this is societal problem for the young generally irrespective of race.
Certainly things have changed since I was asked if I was willing to work alongside a black man (that was how it was put), which I was.
Some of my colleagues were very hostile to the idea so he wasn't taken on - and I wasn't flavour of the month for a while.

There is a problem with sectors of immigrants from the Indian sub continent - mainly I think that in such societies women are sub-servient and often only mix with others of their society. A lot of them have no English and rely on a relative to translate for them if they need to deal with an official or visit a hospital. That IMO is a serious problem - these women will never integrate into the wider society.

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Syd
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Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

White Working class Boys left behind

Postby Syd » 18 Jul 2020, 5:06pm

How do the immigrants who come to the UK and not integrate differ to the ex-pats in Spain living in their gated communities and frequenting their British Pub?

People mix with those they most closely identify themselves with.

mumbojumbo
Posts: 152
Joined: 1 Aug 2018, 8:18pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby mumbojumbo » 18 Jul 2020, 6:54pm

The immigants to UK are usually younger,poorer yet more open,educated and less complacent compared with the ex-pats developing leathery skin and risking alcoholism while smuggling jars of Marmite fish-paste and flavoured crisps.

Carlton green
Posts: 774
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: White Working class Boys left behind

Postby Carlton green » 18 Jul 2020, 7:15pm

Syd wrote:I am in the middle of recruiting an Indian national for my workforce. The post has been vacant for a significant period of time and has more than surpassed the resident labour market test requirements.

This is not a poorly paid job, with the salary set under Agenda for Change, but it has been impossible for some time to recruit from the local market.

Colleges and Universities are not teaching the appropriate subjects and the route through which I, and many colleagues, gained relevant skills to enter the occupation have disappeared in the UK over that past few decades.

Where I worked previously less that one third of the team were white British.


Good luck with the recruitment, I wish you well with it. It’s is true that sometimes you just have to look further afield to fill that impossible to fill vacancy and it’s also true that you work in an essential service, but were you a company then my view would be tough luck. I do however fully agree that Universities and Colleges don’t turn out students to suit the vacancies, but as the students pay for the courses the ones offered are those that interest the student. The routes into skilled employment are now virtually all by degree which, IMHO is completely bonkers. The leave School at 16 route and gain qualifications via technical colleges and on the job training was, to my mind, far superior. I blame Blair for that structural change, to my mind it was introduced to suppress youth unemployment figures and had little to do with education.

The NHS has a habit of employing incompetent managers and treating its staff poorly too; no slight intended but what is it about your department and hospital that is so unattractive as to have any potential applicants going elsewhere?

We could chat further about this (there is more to be said) but it would have to be by private pm and really it’s not that important.

All the above aside we drift away from my earlier and fundamental point that the roots of indigenous antipathy towards migrants date back to the 50’s when cheap labour was wilfully imported to undercut and disadvantage working class people. That action devalued those white lives and needs to be put right, white lives matter.

Syd wrote:How do the immigrants who come to the UK and not integrate differ to the ex-pats in Spain living in their gated communities and frequenting their British Pub?

People mix with those they most closely identify themselves with.


Expats going to Spain don’t compete with the locals for work and are typically retired or of independent means, they contribute to the local economy by employing the services of local people. Other than that I deplore such folk going there for just the weather and think that they should be out there speaking the language and playing an active part in the community in which they live. I have a relative in Spain, he speaks the language and lives in the community with his Spanish wife. Both are long retired. When his wife lived and worked in the U.K. she did everything that she possibly could to integrate with the local community and spoke good English.