Carlton green wrote:
pwa wrote:I was nodding in agreement until I got to that last bit. The Asian migrants were pawns in a world economy they had no control over, just like the white working class they ending up living alongside. They stuck together to survive and feel secure, which is an impilse all of us should be able to understand. But the lack of integration is a problem, and it is something that needs addressing. Many towns have ethnic ghettos, and that simply can't be good for any of us.
Poor and under-educated people face challenges regardless of their ethnicity, but if you are poor, under-educated and from a racial minority you have one extra hurdle to face, on top of all the others. Can't we try to deal with that, at the same time as dealing with the issues that affect all poor communities?
I sense quite a lot of common ground In your response and a good deal of pragmatic common sense.
Economic migrants are to an extent pawns in a World Economy and to some large extent they are willing Pawns, but to an extent we are all Pawns dancing to the tunes called by Masters of commerce - it was ever thus. Integration or rather lack of it is one of the most destructive issues and here we have something that migrants are largely responsible for in that that they do not use English as their first language and have retained their own cultures and traditions rather than adopting indigenous British ones. If you come to Britain it should be to become essentially British, IIRC the Germans have a better handle on this issue than us in that they insist that migrants (from outside of the EU) integrate and attend lessons to do so.
Yes the poor and undereducated face hurdles and being of a non-British background might be a disadvantage. However it’s something other than being non-British that is the factor and it has been established over some time. If you’re North American, Western European or from Australia or Newzealand you’re unlikely to have issues, you’re perceived as people like us and folk that will fit in. There are reasons why migrants from other places simply aren’t seen in the same positive way and the migrants are responsible for those reasons, as such they (as a group) have made hurdles for themselves. Several decades back this country also sore waves of migrations from Italian, Polish and Irish people; I’ve barely seen any discrimination against them and they have integrated whilst still quietly keeping parts of their own cultural heritage.
What is to be done? Well first recognition that white lives matter and that complaints are justified must happen. After that migrants must be clear that they have two alternatives, to either become part of the society to which they moved or to move on to another one in a different country. Part of that integration means them adjusting lifestyles and personal values to match indigenous ones. Of course from the fifties we have seen the children of migrants be born in this country, receive an education here and take on many Western European ways. Historic and family values still persist for very many though and hence honour killings and forced marriage are not abnormal - horrific practices and completely alien to U.K. culture. Really the bulk of the solution lies within the control of the migrant people’s, they need to change themselves and in doing so the barriers they face will eventually diminish and disappear.
There is quite a lot there - some of which I agree with.
Perhaps you are too young to remember but the Irish were discriminated against - hence notices in lodging house "No Blacks, No Irish No Dogs"
I was listening to the farming programme on the BBC this morning.
Apparently one reason that east european workers are preferred is that they are easier to coerce into accepting unsafe and unhygienic working conditions without defined working hours. The minimum wage is considered too high and there is a de facto "bonus system".
Also they can be accommodated in sub standard conditions - British workers aren't going to live on site and be readily available. I don't think the accommodation is free. There are a number of so called "gang -masters" who can deliver a subservient workforce.
Still it keeps the fruit and veg on the supermarket shelves.
Not all farmers are party to these things and some employ direct the same people every year.
Afro - Caribbean immigrants generally speak English - usually as a first language - so I don't think that is a reason for lack of integration.
I had the impression that this group were well integrated but deprivation and unemployment have in recent years caused disaffection especially among the young - that also applies to the mainly white youth of the old industrial communities - so I'd suggest that this is societal problem for the young generally irrespective of race.
Certainly things have changed since I was asked if I was willing to work alongside a black man (that was how it was put), which I was.
Some of my colleagues were very hostile to the idea so he wasn't taken on - and I wasn't flavour of the month for a while.
There is a problem with sectors of immigrants from the Indian sub continent - mainly I think that in such societies women are sub-servient and often only mix with others of their society. A lot of them have no English and rely on a relative to translate for them if they need to deal with an official or visit a hospital. That IMO is a serious problem - these women will never integrate into the wider society.