Back to work?

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pwa
Posts: 12480
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby pwa » 20 Jul 2020, 6:00am

pete75 wrote:The government appears to want most of the people working from home as a result of C19 to go back into the workplace. Why? If employees have been doing their jobs just as effectively from home they should continue to do so.It's good for the environment reducing pollution and congestion on the roads as well as making them safer for those who do need to travel. It's good for public transport in that fewer buses, trains etc will be required for rush hour and then stay unused until the next rush hour - commuter services often run at a loss. It's good for the employees because they won't be wasting time on unnecessary travel. It's good for employers as they'll be able to reduce the amount they may be spending on expensive office accommodation.

I imagine some employers will be thinking about the benefits to them of having employees working from home more than in the past, having had this enforced experiment thrust upon them. For office workers this is a real possibility.

My own job has continued throughout and won't be affected by this. I'm just grateful that me and the missus have jobs that are secure.

Shopping will undoubtedly see a big shift from real stores on high streets and out-of-town complexes, to online. It was already happening but get ready to see the closing down of a large number of shops in your area. And with that will come a drop in the value of retail property, which will affect pension funds. Delivery vans will increase in number.

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Navara
Posts: 66
Joined: 29 Jun 2020, 11:38pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby Navara » 20 Jul 2020, 11:49am

pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:. I personally don't know anyone furloughed and getting their pay made up to 100%.

I do.

I do.
Certain departments at work have been/are furloughed.The company is making the Govts 80% up to 100% percent of actual pay and not just up to £2500 as per Govt promise!
A bit annoying for those of us who are still working instead of having an extended holiday without actually using holiday entitlement!

Cowsham
Posts: 510
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby Cowsham » 20 Jul 2020, 12:08pm

pwa wrote:
Shopping will undoubtedly see a big shift from real stores on high streets and out-of-town complexes, to online. It was already happening but get ready to see the closing down of a large number of shops in your area. And with that will come a drop in the value of retail property


Huh! What planet have you been on the last 20 years or so ? Retail has been dead since about 1996.
They kept pushing up business premises rates till no one could afford to run a small independent shop -- neither can the big multiples but they crash and burn much later and more spectacularly.

pwa
Posts: 12480
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby pwa » 20 Jul 2020, 4:09pm

Cowsham wrote:
pwa wrote:
Shopping will undoubtedly see a big shift from real stores on high streets and out-of-town complexes, to online. It was already happening but get ready to see the closing down of a large number of shops in your area. And with that will come a drop in the value of retail property


Huh! What planet have you been on the last 20 years or so ? Retail has been dead since about 1996.
They kept pushing up business premises rates till no one could afford to run a small independent shop -- neither can the big multiples but they crash and burn much later and more spectacularly.

I know what has been happening (hence "It was already happening...") but this will bring it to the precipice. Get ready to have no Debenhams and no House of Fraser in your nearest big town. Even the erstwhile successful John Lewis is now struggling. They have been hanging on for some years now but that finger tip grip is now being broken.
Last edited by pwa on 20 Jul 2020, 5:15pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
Posts: 13083
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby pete75 » 20 Jul 2020, 5:08pm

Cowsham wrote:
pwa wrote:
Shopping will undoubtedly see a big shift from real stores on high streets and out-of-town complexes, to online. It was already happening but get ready to see the closing down of a large number of shops in your area. And with that will come a drop in the value of retail property


Huh! What planet have you been on the last 20 years or so ? Retail has been dead since about 1996.
They kept pushing up business premises rates till no one could afford to run a small independent shop -- neither can the big multiples but they crash and burn much later and more spectacularly.


Retail is as alive and well as ever. It's just moving more and more onto the internet.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8107
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Back to work?

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Jul 2020, 5:15pm

Navara wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:. I personally don't know anyone furloughed and getting their pay made up to 100%.

I do.

I do.
Certain departments at work have been/are furloughed.The company is making the Govts 80% up to 100% percent of actual pay and not just up to £2500 as per Govt promise!
A bit annoying for those of us who are still working instead of having an extended holiday without actually using holiday entitlement!

Or, as our friends put it yesterday when we saw them for the first time in 4 months, spending 3 months worrying about whether they would have jobs at the end of all this. Their furlough time gave them lots of time for worry with nothing much to do. They would both have greatly preferred to have worked. It was anything but a holiday.

The Group I'm working for topped up to 100%, other than a couple of their small subsids., but gave notice that they would be requiring those on furlough to take a week's holiday between designated dates. It is happening again for those on continuing furlough at the end of this month.

Cowsham
Posts: 510
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby Cowsham » 20 Jul 2020, 6:50pm

pete75 wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
pwa wrote:
Shopping will undoubtedly see a big shift from real stores on high streets and out-of-town complexes, to online. It was already happening but get ready to see the closing down of a large number of shops in your area. And with that will come a drop in the value of retail property


Huh! What planet have you been on the last 20 years or so ? Retail has been dead since about 1996.
They kept pushing up business premises rates till no one could afford to run a small independent shop -- neither can the big multiples but they crash and burn much later and more spectacularly.


Retail is as alive and well as ever. It's just moving more and more onto the internet.


It's not high street retail though. The business premise rates system needs a massive rethink if government wants to keep life in the town centres. The rates for a small shop in our town is at least 20 times the rates of a house the same size.

Not only that but the empty property rates is in fact stealing cos the government is charging extortionate money for no service provided.

This also means an old shop owner can't retire cos it's too expensive to shut a shop that no one wants to take on even rent free cos the rates are too buckin high. The owner has three options
1 get some charity to move in. Shop gets into disrepair since the owner can't afford to do any work cos there's no income. No shop
2 work till he/she dies and it becomes someone else's problem. No proprietor.
3 demolish the place. No shop.

Government don't care about businesses in towns -- I got that from a government representative directly.

Cowsham
Posts: 510
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby Cowsham » 20 Jul 2020, 6:53pm

pwa wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
pwa wrote:
Shopping will undoubtedly see a big shift from real stores on high streets and out-of-town complexes, to online. It was already happening but get ready to see the closing down of a large number of shops in your area. And with that will come a drop in the value of retail property


Huh! What planet have you been on the last 20 years or so ? Retail has been dead since about 1996.
They kept pushing up business premises rates till no one could afford to run a small independent shop -- neither can the big multiples but they crash and burn much later and more spectacularly.

I know what has been happening (hence "It was already happening...") but this will bring it to the precipice. Get ready to have no Debenhams and no House of Fraser in your nearest big town. Even the erstwhile successful John Lewis is now struggling. They have been hanging on for some years now but that finger tip grip is now being broken.


I'll really miss Debenhams and House of Fraser who's John Lewis? :wink:

pete75
Posts: 13083
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby pete75 » 20 Jul 2020, 7:12pm

Cowsham wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Huh! What planet have you been on the last 20 years or so ? Retail has been dead since about 1996.
They kept pushing up business premises rates till no one could afford to run a small independent shop -- neither can the big multiples but they crash and burn much later and more spectacularly.


Retail is as alive and well as ever. It's just moving more and more onto the internet.


It's not high street retail though. The business premise rates system needs a massive rethink if government wants to keep life in the town centres. The rates for a small shop in our town is at least 20 times the rates of a house the same size.

Not only that but the empty property rates is in fact stealing cos the government is charging extortionate money for no service provided.

This also means an old shop owner can't retire cos it's too expensive to shut a shop that no one wants to take on even rent free cos the rates are too buckin high. The owner has three options
1 get some charity to move in. Shop gets into disrepair since the owner can't afford to do any work cos there's no income. No shop
2 work till he/she dies and it becomes someone else's problem. No proprietor.
3 demolish the place. No shop.

Government don't care about businesses in towns -- I got that from a government representative directly.


If H G Wells novel "The History of Mr Polly" is anything to go by many small shopkeepers had marginal businesses back in 1910 so it's not a new phenomena.

Cowsham
Posts: 510
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby Cowsham » 20 Jul 2020, 10:43pm

pete75 wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Retail is as alive and well as ever. It's just moving more and more onto the internet.


It's not high street retail though. The business premise rates system needs a massive rethink if government wants to keep life in the town centres. The rates for a small shop in our town is at least 20 times the rates of a house the same size.

Not only that but the empty property rates is in fact stealing cos the government is charging extortionate money for no service provided.

This also means an old shop owner can't retire cos it's too expensive to shut a shop that no one wants to take on even rent free cos the rates are too buckin high. The owner has three options
1 get some charity to move in. Shop gets into disrepair since the owner can't afford to do any work cos there's no income. No shop
2 work till he/she dies and it becomes someone else's problem. No proprietor.
3 demolish the place. No shop.

Government don't care about businesses in towns -- I got that from a government representative directly.


If H G Wells novel "The History of Mr Polly" is anything to go by many small shopkeepers had marginal businesses back in 1910 so it's not a new phenomena.


I'm not that old but I do remember my town in much better times before they hiked the rates in the 90's here and jacked them up mercilessly every year since. They have no regard at all for the struggling shop keeper. They force them to sell the premises for virtually nothing effectively stealing property from under them.

Opening a shop here is the fastest way to loose your money. I've seen big shots arrive in their mercs and toddle off in their Renault Clios.

Tangled Metal
Posts: 6837
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby Tangled Metal » 20 Jul 2020, 10:59pm

Navara wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:. I personally don't know anyone furloughed and getting their pay made up to 100%.

I do.

I do.
Certain departments at work have been/are furloughed.The company is making the Govts 80% up to 100% percent of actual pay and not just up to £2500 as per Govt promise!
A bit annoying for those of us who are still working instead of having an extended holiday without actually using holiday entitlement!

Good for you but round my neck of the woods it's not the norm. Northern Lancashire in case you're curious. Perhaps it's a big company or Southern thing to top up but round here it's not that common. It would be great if it was but TBH everyone I know who is furloughed feel that it's only putting off the inevitable unemployment for many.

Our company did not send period people home and furlough people because of being unable to operate safely but because there were no orders to manufacture. It's still the case that half the workforce hasn't come off furlough even on a part time basis. Distancing was very easy because almost all work stations operate with one person at least 2m away from the nearest person. Measures were put in place for other aspects of the workplace.

All this is good planning but useless if orders stop. Why did they stop? Because car manufacturers shut down, tier 1 didn't place orders and so we had to furlough. But that's not a holiday when you realise things have changed and there's serious pressure on your employers who might not bring you back. Furlough system is changing placing more emphasis on companies footing the bill until it's stopped completely. That extra pressure on SMEs is going to cause job losses and many of us furloughed people know that. Job market isn't going to be great when that happens or before that happens.

Personally I think it's the ones who have carried on working through this period who have had things easier. Controversial view but they are earning full pay, they're contributing to their company's bottom line. Their jobs are likely to be more secure. Job security is worth a lot more than 4 months of enforced "holiday"with job insecurity.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8107
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Back to work?

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Jul 2020, 11:04pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Personally I think it's the ones who have carried on working through this period who have had things easier. Controversial view but they are earning full pay, they're contributing to their company's bottom line. Their jobs are likely to be more secure. Job security is worth a lot more than 4 months of enforced "holiday"with job insecurity.

Correct. Although companies are required to use a fair selection process, I'd reckon that the people who are still on furlough will be rightly feeling very pessimistic about their future.

pwa
Posts: 12480
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Back to work?

Postby pwa » 21 Jul 2020, 8:29am

Bonefishblues wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Personally I think it's the ones who have carried on working through this period who have had things easier. Controversial view but they are earning full pay, they're contributing to their company's bottom line. Their jobs are likely to be more secure. Job security is worth a lot more than 4 months of enforced "holiday"with job insecurity.

Correct. Although companies are required to use a fair selection process, I'd reckon that the people who are still on furlough will be rightly feeling very pessimistic about their future.

As someone who has been working throughout, I generally agree. Covid-wise, I have been more exposed to risk than those able to stay at home, and my workload has been relentlessly heavy with absolutely no easy days. But behind it all I have had the knowledge that my job is secure and the bills will be paid, and that counts for a lot.

I know there are a lot of people out there not feeling secure about their job and their income.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 4665
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: Back to work?

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Jul 2020, 9:04am

There are an awful lot of people out there who don't know that they are in effect unemployed. I have just written to my MP asking what government plans are.

I am disgusted at the lack of resilience with UK companies who just before lockdown paid massive dividends then needed help to pay their staff. The no longer build durable businesses but always merely want a quick buck and to hell with the future.
John

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8107
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Back to work?

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Jul 2020, 9:07am

That's the British way though.

Interesting times v-a-v the Tories seeing massive market intervention as the way to go. I wouldn't mind a bit of old-school toryism (as compared to what we've had, that is).