Gang of six-impact on Xmas

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pete75
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby pete75 » 17 Sep 2020, 10:35pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:C19 deaths have been kept so low by severely restricting personal freedom and by crippling businesses. Without those extraordinary measures, which have a heavy cost, the number of dead would be several times higher. You and I have not seen what Covid 19 would have done, and might still do, without those measures. I agree that C19 mortality is very low right now. If it did not have the potential to increase greatly it would indeed be just one of the numerous ways to die.


So low? Britain has the highest number of deaths in Europe. It's over four times that of Germany. Admittedly Germany is a richer and more advanced nation but not vastly more so. What it does have is an able and competent leader. She also has a doctorate in Chemistry so is well able to understand the science behind the fight against C19.

Chemistry isn't the same as epidemiology or virology. Next you'll be saying Boris knows about African history / culture because he's a classics scholar.

What is it about people's relationship with STEM that they keep lumping them all in together?


The main science in the fight against C19 where public safety is concerned is statistical and yes I'd expect someone with Merkel's scientific background to understand the stats and their meaning.
And again Yes I'd expect Johnson to know something about African history particularly the parts that were ruled by the Carthaginians, the areas colonised by Rome and certain periods of Pharaonic Egyption history.

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Syd
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Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby Syd » 18 Sep 2020, 6:05am

pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:Neither but please don’t be derogatory about admin / management They are not a ‘just’.


That's how my mother, a nurse for almost 40 years, referred to them. I've no reason to doubt what she said.

Bully to your mother. But she’s wrong. So very wrong.

Add to that all the other specialities who come together to allow a hospital to function today. It is not simply nurses, admin and management.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Sep 2020, 7:05am

Syd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:Neither but please don’t be derogatory about admin / management They are not a ‘just’.


That's how my mother, a nurse for almost 40 years, referred to them. I've no reason to doubt what she said.

Bully to your mother. But she’s wrong. So very wrong.

Add to that all the other specialities who come together to allow a hospital to function today. It is not simply nurses, admin and management.


Quite. Do people really want medical staff to leave clinical work to run payroll and purchasing and property?

We used to say "just cleaners and care home staff and supermarket staff" until we discovered who the real key workers were.
John

tim-b
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby tim-b » 18 Sep 2020, 7:16am

Hi
My mother uses phrases of her generation to describe a variety of people. They're all outdated and occasionally badly wrong
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

Oldjohnw
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Sep 2020, 7:54am

Today it seems like the PM's main job is to ensure that the state - or bodies masquerading as the state - fails so that those to whom he reports can demolish it fully and give it to their mates.

Condemning pen pushers, as I used to hear, aids that process.
John

pete75
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby pete75 » 18 Sep 2020, 8:29am

Oldjohnw wrote:Today it seems like the PM's main job is to ensure that the state - or bodies masquerading as the state - fails so that those to whom he reports can demolish it fully and give it to their mates.

Condemning pen pushers, as I used to hear, aids that process.

Increasing the number of what you call pen pushers may well be used to justify privatisation. It was done where I worked, increased running costs with no increase in output helped make the case for outsourcing.

pete75
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby pete75 » 18 Sep 2020, 8:31am

Syd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:Neither but please don’t be derogatory about admin / management They are not a ‘just’.


That's how my mother, a nurse for almost 40 years, referred to them. I've no reason to doubt what she said.

Bully to your mother. But she’s wrong. So very wrong.

Add to that all the other specialities who come together to allow a hospital to function today. It is not simply nurses, admin and management.

Strange how she managed a successful career while being in your view so very wrong.

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Syd
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Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby Syd » 18 Sep 2020, 8:39am

pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
That's how my mother, a nurse for almost 40 years, referred to them. I've no reason to doubt what she said.

Bully to your mother. But she’s wrong. So very wrong.

Add to that all the other specialities who come together to allow a hospital to function today. It is not simply nurses, admin and management.

Strange how she managed a successful career while being in your view so very wrong.

I’m sure she was a competent nurse who carried out her job to a high level. Something that would have been impossible without those ‘just’ people.

I am not going to sit here and bang my own drum but I know the work me, and my team, have been carrying out during this pandemic has prevented wide ranging failures across the board that would have crippled clinical services and severely impacted patient safety.

merseymouth
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby merseymouth » 18 Sep 2020, 9:33am

Yes it is derogatory to refer to admin/management staff as "Just"!

In comparison I offer the case of the Royal Tank Regiment in the North Africa campaign.
Sure folk remember the Fireflys, Vaelntines and Shermans, but just think about the limited storage space in such weapons of war? What about the effective fuel range??
So behind the men at the sharp end in the armoured vehicles was a long supply chain of men in vulnerable soft-skin vehicles hauling all the stuff that was needed to sent a single shell up the spout!
That applies just the same in the NHS, whether it be bog rolls or nuclear isotopes for diagnostic work, all play a part, all need respect. MM

pete75
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby pete75 » 18 Sep 2020, 10:31am

merseymouth wrote:Yes it is derogatory to refer to admin/management staff as "Just"!

In comparison I offer the case of the Royal Tank Regiment in the North Africa campaign.
Sure folk remember the Fireflys, Vaelntines and Shermans, but just think about the limited storage space in such weapons of war? What about the effective fuel range??
So behind the men at the sharp end in the armoured vehicles was a long supply chain of men in vulnerable soft-skin vehicles hauling all the stuff that was needed to sent a single shell up the spout!
That applies just the same in the NHS, whether it be bog rolls or nuclear isotopes for diagnostic work, all play a part, all need respect. MM


The supply chain is hardly admin and of course management is necessary just not all the layers of middle management which built up over the last 30 or 40 years and is now being got rid of in many organisations.

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Syd
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby Syd » 18 Sep 2020, 10:38am

pete75 wrote:
merseymouth wrote:Yes it is derogatory to refer to admin/management staff as "Just"!

In comparison I offer the case of the Royal Tank Regiment in the North Africa campaign.
Sure folk remember the Fireflys, Vaelntines and Shermans, but just think about the limited storage space in such weapons of war? What about the effective fuel range??
So behind the men at the sharp end in the armoured vehicles was a long supply chain of men in vulnerable soft-skin vehicles hauling all the stuff that was needed to sent a single shell up the spout!
That applies just the same in the NHS, whether it be bog rolls or nuclear isotopes for diagnostic work, all play a part, all need respect. MM


The supply chain is hardly admin and of course management is necessary just not all the layers of middle management which built up over the last 30 or 40 years and is now being got rid of in many organisations.

Who do the think places, and receipts, the orders that are an integral part of the supply chain?

pete75
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby pete75 » 18 Sep 2020, 10:41am

Syd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:Bully to your mother. But she’s wrong. So very wrong.

Add to that all the other specialities who come together to allow a hospital to function today. It is not simply nurses, admin and management.

Strange how she managed a successful career while being in your view so very wrong.

I’m sure she was a competent nurse who carried out her job to a high level. Something that would have been impossible without those ‘just’ people.



Her point was that the number of such people increased greatly during her career whereas the number of nursing and medical staff decreased.

pete75
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Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby pete75 » 18 Sep 2020, 10:43am

Syd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
merseymouth wrote:Yes it is derogatory to refer to admin/management staff as "Just"!

In comparison I offer the case of the Royal Tank Regiment in the North Africa campaign.
Sure folk remember the Fireflys, Vaelntines and Shermans, but just think about the limited storage space in such weapons of war? What about the effective fuel range??
So behind the men at the sharp end in the armoured vehicles was a long supply chain of men in vulnerable soft-skin vehicles hauling all the stuff that was needed to sent a single shell up the spout!
That applies just the same in the NHS, whether it be bog rolls or nuclear isotopes for diagnostic work, all play a part, all need respect. MM


The supply chain is hardly admin and of course management is necessary just not all the layers of middle management which built up over the last 30 or 40 years and is now being got rid of in many organisations.

Who do the think places, and receipts, the orders that are an integral part of the supply chain?


The purchase and supply department usually not the admin department.

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Syd
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Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby Syd » 18 Sep 2020, 10:50am

pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
The supply chain is hardly admin and of course management is necessary just not all the layers of middle management which built up over the last 30 or 40 years and is now being got rid of in many organisations.

Who do the think places, and receipts, the orders that are an integral part of the supply chain?


The purchase and supply department usually not the admin department.

There is no single ‘admin department’. We are not an admin department but have sizeable admin staffing essential to support me and my teams to carry out work efficiently. That includes placing and receipting orders for our department.

I’m sorry but you quite obviously do not understand the operation of a service like the NHS.

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Gang of six-impact on Xmas

Postby pete75 » 18 Sep 2020, 11:00am

Syd wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Syd wrote:Who do the think places, and receipts, the orders that are an integral part of the supply chain?


The purchase and supply department usually not the admin department.

There is no single ‘admin department’. We are not an admin department but have sizeable admin staffing essential to support me and my teams to carry out work efficiently. That includes placing and receipting orders for our department.

I’m sorry but you quite obviously do not understand the operation of a service like the NHS.


You'e right. The way the NHS operates at an admin level is difficult to understand for folk who have worked in less bureaucratic organisations.