Breaking International Law

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simonineaston
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby simonineaston » 15 Sep 2020, 11:44am

Although there's much talk of "international law", I've not read one comment, here or elsewhere, or newspaper article, that has referenced the relevant legislation, or its location. Caveat: I have today been much more interested in toast, marmelade - and indeed - a bowl of honey-loaded porridge, so may have missed it...
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

Jdsk
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 11:53am

Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties
https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/unts/volume%201155/volume-1155-i-18232-english.pdf

The Belfast Agreement:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-belfast-agreement

New Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-withdrawal-agreement-and-political-declaration

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2020/1/enacted/data.htm

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9003/

But I was working on the assumption that people had read them before commenting...

Jonathan

PS: In general I'd recommend starting with the Wikipedia article on each.

mercalia
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby mercalia » 15 Sep 2020, 11:54am

Mick F wrote:Is there such a thing as International Law?

Surely, laws are for your specific country created by your own government. We don't have an international government, so there cannot be international law.

.......... or am I wrong?


There are, but lumping them with domestic law is like lumping a Big Mac with a meal in a restaurant.

Look at JDSK refs above most refer to conventions or agreements. Not to be compared with our "agreement" not to steal other people's property...
Last edited by mercalia on 15 Sep 2020, 12:07pm, edited 5 times in total.

thirdcrank
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Sep 2020, 11:56am

simonineaston wrote: ... : I have today been much more interested in toast, marmelade - and indeed - a bowl of honey-loaded porridge, so may have missed it...


And that's what the people "advising" the prime minister are depending on.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby roubaixtuesday » 15 Sep 2020, 11:57am

Mick F wrote:
.......... or am I wrong?


I'm afraid so.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law

Jdsk
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 11:59am

Mick F wrote:Is there such a thing as International Law?

Surely, laws are for your specific country created by your own government. We don't have an international government, so there cannot be international law.

.......... or am I wrong?

There is such a thing. It's different from domestic law. Sanctions are often available.

The Ministerial Code of Conduct requires compliance with both.

Shirley

PS: Fisheries are getting a lot of attention at the moment. Any international agreement will rely on... international law.

Jdsk
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 12:01pm

mercalia wrote:Look at JDSK refs above all refer to conventions or agreements.

No, they don't.

One of them is a UK domestic law and another is what the Government would like to be.

Jonathan

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Mick F
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby Mick F » 15 Sep 2020, 12:04pm

If there is a thing as International Law, it has to be Domestic Law.

An international treaty has to be agreed on domestically, making it a domestic law that we agree to an international agreement.
It doesn't make it International Law. It relies on co-operation with the countries as a whole. No law could stop them ignoring the treaty.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic (as usual).

If the Tory's want to go against the treaty, they'll be breaking our domestic law. As they are the government, they can do as they please.
Mick F. Cornwall

PH
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby PH » 15 Sep 2020, 12:04pm

Mick F wrote:Is there such a thing as International Law?

Surely, laws are for your specific country created by your own government. We don't have an international government, so there cannot be international law.

.......... or am I wrong?

What did you think when you were in the Navy in international waters? Did you think it was lawless?

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby roubaixtuesday » 15 Sep 2020, 12:08pm

Mick F wrote:
Perhaps I'm being pedantic (as usual).


No, you're just wrong.

There is a well established thing called international law. Whether you think it should exist or not, or whether you think it should be called something else, it does exist.

Just like you can choose to break domestic law by robbing someone, the UK can choose to break international treaties, as the government proposes to. That doesn't prove that robbery is legal.

Have a read of the wiki link.

Jdsk
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 12:12pm

Mick F wrote:If there is a thing as International Law, it has to be Domestic Law.

An international treaty has to be agreed on domestically, making it a domestic law that we agree to an international agreement.
It doesn't make it International Law. It relies on co-operation with the countries as a whole. No law could stop them ignoring the treaty.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic (as usual).

I wouldn't worry about being pedantic, but this is just wrong. Have a look at monist and dualist systems in that Wikipedia article.

Treaties are usually made by prerogative powers. There has been a welcome trend in the UK towards Parliamentary ratification of treaties. But it isn't essential.

Mick F wrote:If the Tory's want to go against the treaty, they'll be breaking our domestic law. As they are the government, they can do as they please.

That is the precise opposite of the rule of law. It's often known as totalitarianism.

Jonathan

Jdsk
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 12:12pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Perhaps I'm being pedantic (as usual).

No, you're just wrong.

There is a well established thing called international law. Whether you think it should exist or not, or whether you think it should be called something else, it does exist.

Just like you can choose to break domestic law by robbing someone, the UK can choose to break international treaties, as the government proposes to. That doesn't prove that robbery is legal.

Have a read of the wiki link.

SNAP!

Jonathan

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby roubaixtuesday » 15 Sep 2020, 12:20pm

Jdsk wrote:SNAP!

Jonathan


:lol:

Sadly, I fear no amount of facts, however compelling will make any difference.

Brexit has become an all consuming blinding poison; anything, *anything*, however damaging, however far from the original promises, so long as justified in the name of Brexit becomes an essential act of patriotism.

We are now tearing up treaties entered into just months ago, building lorry parks, employing bureaucrats in the tens of thousands. Apparently so a *conservative* government can subsidise loss making technology companies and put various barriers on free trade with our largest market.

And somehow a sizeable portion of the populace now believes this is what they always wanted.

Jdsk
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby Jdsk » 15 Sep 2020, 12:21pm

If only I could think of an historical analogy...

Jonathan

roubaixtuesday
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Re: Breaking International Law

Postby roubaixtuesday » 15 Sep 2020, 12:23pm

Jdsk wrote:If only I could think of an historical analogy...

Jonathan


:(