The Brexit thread

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mercalia
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby mercalia » 20 Oct 2020, 4:21pm

Jdsk wrote:That's a paywalled article. Please could you tell us what it says?

Thanks

Jonathan


try it again.

I might add I broadly agree with the QC, the EU hasnt been fair in that it has been dodging its responsibilities as a gurarantor of the GFA expecting the UK to take the hit, hence the W.A. The UK has be treated as a special case or the EU should stop pretending to being a guarantor of the GFA. I dont know whether the EUs actions are intentional and malicious as the QC says or just an ignorant consequence of letting bureaucrats handle the EUs side of the negotiations
Last edited by mercalia on 20 Oct 2020, 4:31pm, edited 3 times in total.

Jdsk
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Jdsk » 20 Oct 2020, 4:25pm

It's still paywalled. Why would it have changed?

You're promoting it: what does it say?

Jonathan

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby mercalia » 20 Oct 2020, 4:38pm

Comparisons woth CETA the canadian deal

1)
Canadian bodies can certify exported goods as complying with EU standards (and vice versa for EU goods going the opposite way). Since UK-based certification bodies are already experts at certifying goods that comply with EU single market rules, it makes obvious sense for them to continue this role under a future free-trade agreement with the EU. But the EU has refused, with the naked purpose of damaging UK-based certification and testing bodies and increasing costs for UK exporters.

2)
In another highly technical but important difference, the EU has refused to recognise goods from third countries with which the EU and the UK both have free-trade agreements as counting towards ‘cumulation of origin’ – entitling products to be imported tariff-free into the EU. This means, for example, that cars built in the UK using Japanese car parts would not be able to enter the EU tariff-free. In contrast, the EU does allow this kind of cumulation in CETA and with most of its major trade partners. It is clear that the EU is singling the UK out for vindictive punishment.

3) The issue of how the W.A interfers with the internal market of the UK
Take Northern Ireland. Canada does not have to agree to one of its provinces being subject to foreign laws enforced by a foreign court, nor to custom controls being set up between that province and other parts of Canada. Nor is Canada required to have state aid controls over its whole territory administered by a foreign commission and interpreted by a foreign court. It does not have its laws about foreign citizens on its territory being interpreted by that foreign court, and does not have to submit to a court that oversees huge financial payments to the EU. CETA also does not in any way subject Canada to the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

so the QC is arguing the deal on the table is worse than CETA and in particular the W.A needs to be unpicked. ( I agree for the reasons mentioned previously that the EU is refusing to take a hit on being a guarantor of the GFA)

Jdsk
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Jdsk » 20 Oct 2020, 4:43pm

The UK isn't Canada. Its trade with the EU is completely different from Canada's. And we're a bit closer.

Our negotiators should be trying to get the best possible agreement for our country. I expect the EU to be doing the same for its Member States.

Whingeing that it isn't the same as another country's agreement may play well politically, but it's irrelevant to the national interest.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 20 Oct 2020, 6:00pm, edited 1 time in total.

reohn2
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby reohn2 » 20 Oct 2020, 5:55pm

francovendee wrote:
reohn2 wrote:THIS caller is what sensible people are up against:- https://youtu.be/H8Bw1_yUphY


It could pass a script for the two Ronnie's.
Hilarious if it wasn't so awful.
After all this time the public are still believing the lies from this corrupt government. What will it take?

Quite!
And there are many,many more just like that caller,claiming it's all about sovereignty,they need us more than we need them,the EU will break up if we leave,etc,etc.peddled by the likes of BoJo,Gove,Cummings and their string pulling oligarchs and media moguls,along with property barons who've poured millions of ££££s into the Tory party and will reap their ill gotten gains when their puppet government relaxes if not abolishes planning laws.

The sad truth of brexit is a tax haven for the rich and a bonfire of regulations!
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reohn2
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby reohn2 » 20 Oct 2020, 6:02pm

Mercalia
When are you going to see that the EU is doing everything it can to protect the bloc,that's it's job.
Why would it seek to make life easy for an errant country like the UK whose making life as difficult as it can and even promising to break international treaties,threatening to just walk awaay and not pay it's dues?

Why would they want to make the UK's life easy?

Instead of burying your head in the detail,look at the bigger picture from the EU's POV!
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Oct 2020, 6:48pm

mercalia wrote:Comparisons woth CETA the canadian deal

1)
Canadian bodies can certify exported goods as complying with EU standards (and vice versa for EU goods going the opposite way). Since UK-based certification bodies are already experts at certifying goods that comply with EU single market rules, it makes obvious sense for them to continue this role under a future free-trade agreement with the EU. But the EU has refused, with the naked purpose of damaging UK-based certification and testing bodies and increasing costs for UK exporters.

2)
In another highly technical but important difference, the EU has refused to recognise goods from third countries with which the EU and the UK both have free-trade agreements as counting towards ‘cumulation of origin’ – entitling products to be imported tariff-free into the EU. This means, for example, that cars built in the UK using Japanese car parts would not be able to enter the EU tariff-free. In contrast, the EU does allow this kind of cumulation in CETA and with most of its major trade partners. It is clear that the EU is singling the UK out for vindictive punishment.

3) The issue of how the W.A interfers with the internal market of the UK
Take Northern Ireland. Canada does not have to agree to one of its provinces being subject to foreign laws enforced by a foreign court, nor to custom controls being set up between that province and other parts of Canada. Nor is Canada required to have state aid controls over its whole territory administered by a foreign commission and interpreted by a foreign court. It does not have its laws about foreign citizens on its territory being interpreted by that foreign court, and does not have to submit to a court that oversees huge financial payments to the EU. CETA also does not in any way subject Canada to the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

so the QC is arguing the deal on the table is worse than CETA and in particular the W.A needs to be unpicked. ( I agree for the reasons mentioned previously that the EU is refusing to take a hit on being a guarantor of the GFA)


Mercalia,

You seem to think the EU is somehow obliged to give the UK the same terms as Canada.

Why?

pete75
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby pete75 » 20 Oct 2020, 6:51pm

mercalia wrote:Comparisons woth CETA the canadian deal

1)
Canadian bodies can certify exported goods as complying with EU standards (and vice versa for EU goods going the opposite way). Since UK-based certification bodies are already experts at certifying goods that comply with EU single market rules, it makes obvious sense for them to continue this role under a future free-trade agreement with the EU. But the EU has refused, with the naked purpose of damaging UK-based certification and testing bodies and increasing costs for UK exporters.

2)
In another highly technical but important difference, the EU has refused to recognise goods from third countries with which the EU and the UK both have free-trade agreements as counting towards ‘cumulation of origin’ – entitling products to be imported tariff-free into the EU. This means, for example, that cars built in the UK using Japanese car parts would not be able to enter the EU tariff-free. In contrast, the EU does allow this kind of cumulation in CETA and with most of its major trade partners. It is clear that the EU is singling the UK out for vindictive punishment.

3) The issue of how the W.A interfers with the internal market of the UK
Take Northern Ireland. Canada does not have to agree to one of its provinces being subject to foreign laws enforced by a foreign court, nor to custom controls being set up between that province and other parts of Canada. Nor is Canada required to have state aid controls over its whole territory administered by a foreign commission and interpreted by a foreign court. It does not have its laws about foreign citizens on its territory being interpreted by that foreign court, and does not have to submit to a court that oversees huge financial payments to the EU. CETA also does not in any way subject Canada to the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

so the QC is arguing the deal on the table is worse than CETA and in particular the W.A needs to be unpicked. ( I agree for the reasons mentioned previously that the EU is refusing to take a hit on being a guarantor of the GFA)


Mercalia,

Read this and follow it's instructions. It may set your mind at rest. https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics ... 3xmjD_pkwo

mercalia
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Location: london South

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby mercalia » 20 Oct 2020, 7:28pm

reohn2 wrote:Mercalia
When are you going to see that the EU is doing everything it can to protect the bloc,that's it's job.
Why would it seek to make life easy for an errant country like the UK whose making life as difficult as it can and even promising to break international treaties,threatening to just walk awaay and not pay it's dues?

Why would they want to make the UK's life easy?

Instead of burying your head in the detail,look at the bigger picture from the EU's POV!


you have missed one VITAL POINT. The EU is supposed to be one of the guarantors of the GFA and is not prepared to take the hit from being so, thinking the UK should bare the full brunt of consequences. It thinks it can do what ever it wants to protect its internal market a position that is untenable if it faced up to its obligations eg it can not impose a customs border in Ireland had the UK refused the W.A as it stands ( we should now rescind all aspects of the W.A that affects our internal market and pass the buck to the EU). It is deluded and has the principles of an opportunist.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Jdsk » 20 Oct 2020, 7:37pm

The EU has made no moves to harden the border on the island of Ireland.

The UK decided to Leave. The UK and the EU agreed and signed a treaty that doesn't harden that border. Johnson promoted it as his personal achievement. He forced it through Parliament. He put it in his party's manifesto at the General Election. His Government introduced its provisions into domestic law.

What obligations is the EU not facing up to?

Jonathan

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby roubaixtuesday » 20 Oct 2020, 7:55pm

pete75 wrote:Read this and follow it's instructions. It may set your mind at rest. https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics ... 3xmjD_pkwo


"Brexiters have the same level of interest in detail as potatoes have in Einstein-Rosen wormhole theory. "

Very good.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: The Brexit thread

Postby reohn2 » 20 Oct 2020, 9:45pm

mercalia wrote:you have missed one VITAL POINT......

I haven't missed anything,but you have missed everything!

I recommend you temper your extreme right wing reading habits by considering reading The Morning Star,the truth lies(sic)somewhere in the middle of the two :wink:
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Mick F
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Mick F » 21 Oct 2020, 8:50am

What is truth?
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby reohn2 » 21 Oct 2020, 9:09am

Mick F wrote:What is truth?

The opposite of spin and lies,particular the gross spin and downright lies the leave camp used during the Brexit campaign.
It's been posted by many remainers on the forum and elsewhere that for all it's many faults,the EU it was better for the UK to remain.
And by the way the government of the UK are now forcing the country in,the truth of it is the remainers were were right in their beliefs.

Of course you believe otherwise,whereas remainers have the past forty years of EU membership truth to draw on.
Last edited by reohn2 on 21 Oct 2020, 10:04am, edited 1 time in total.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Oct 2020, 9:10am

Mick F wrote:What is truth?

The opposite of deliberate lies, maybe?