Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

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Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

Marcus Aurelius wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 11:47pm ...
The simple answer is no. It’s not an airborne virus, never was, never will be, it’s primary transmission pathway is touch / close contact.....
Except, research published May 2021:
https://doi.org/10.1093/cid/ciaa1283 wrote:...Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) patients exhaled millions of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 RNA copies per hour, which plays an important role in COVID-19 transmission. ...
ps masks also help prevent droplet transmission as well as helping reduce airborne transmission.

Ian
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Jdsk »

Maillot Rouge wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 10:56am
Jdsk wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 9:09am
Maillot Rouge wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 6:55amThat’s the right way to go about debate!
What's the right way in this forum, please?

Would pointing to the best available current evidence make any difference? For example on how the virus is transmitted, or the efficacy of masks?
Not name calling would be a start!
Nothing seems to have brought out the worst in people,especially online,than the events of the last 18 months.I’m sure that most members are pretty much OK but some appear not to be especially if someone posts something other than their own interpretation of things.
It might be a generation thing.
And would the evidence help?

Thanks

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

I see a Government Minister is now saying England's Track & Trace app's notice to self-isolate are optional and such instructions can be ignored
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-app-ping-business-paul-scully-b1887043.html wrote:Being “pinged” by the program would allow someone to make “informed decisions”, Mr Scully originally said, adding that the decision on whether to self-isolate was “up to individuals and employers”.
(Paul Scully being the Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Labour Markets.)
So those getting "pinged" now know where they stand. Talk about a Government incapable to handling anything even giving clear instructions about pandemics!

Ian
Maillot Rouge
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Joined: 12 Nov 2020, 9:24pm

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Maillot Rouge »

Jdsk wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 11:58am
Maillot Rouge wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 10:56am
Jdsk wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 9:09am
What's the right way in this forum, please?

Would pointing to the best available current evidence make any difference? For example on how the virus is transmitted, or the efficacy of masks?
Not name calling would be a start!
Nothing seems to have brought out the worst in people,especially online,than the events of the last 18 months.I’m sure that most members are pretty much OK but some appear not to be especially if someone posts something other than their own interpretation of things.
It might be a generation thing.
And would the evidence help?

Thanks

Jonathan
You’ve lost me now.There is evidence and evidence.
I’m not particularly interested in why people have the opinion they do.The way some behave against those who’s opinion differs is chilblike.It’s gotten worse since the whole EU membership fiasco and the virus has made it worse still.
I also think the divide is far worse in the UK than it is over the channel.That’s a very British trait I think.
I’m sure that if 99% of the members here met out on the road and didn’t mention the virus or leaving the EU then they would happily chat away like old friends,at least that’s the impression I’ve had.
Jdsk
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Jdsk »

I was asking if citing the current evidence was a good way to contribute to the debate.

I'm moderately familiar with the range of opinions.

Jonathan
Oldjohnw
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Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 202

Post by Oldjohnw »

I am interested in how people come to opinions. Hopefully the process has an evidence base. We might still disagree but it is always helpful to see the rationale.
John
Jdsk
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 11:59am I see a Government Minister is now saying England's Track & Trace app's notice to self-isolate are optional and such instructions can be ignored
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-app-ping-business-paul-scully-b1887043.html wrote:Being “pinged” by the program would allow someone to make “informed decisions”, Mr Scully originally said, adding that the decision on whether to self-isolate was “up to individuals and employers”.
(Paul Scully being the Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Labour Markets.)
So those getting "pinged" now know where they stand. Talk about a Government incapable to handling anything even giving clear instructions about pandemics!
And the opposite message immediately promulgated by "a no 10 spokesperson".
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ers-claims

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 12:34pm
Psamathe wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 11:59am I see a Government Minister is now saying England's Track & Trace app's notice to self-isolate are optional and such instructions can be ignored
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-app-ping-business-paul-scully-b1887043.html wrote:Being “pinged” by the program would allow someone to make “informed decisions”, Mr Scully originally said, adding that the decision on whether to self-isolate was “up to individuals and employers”.
(Paul Scully being the Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Labour Markets.)
So those getting "pinged" now know where they stand. Talk about a Government incapable to handling anything even giving clear instructions about pandemics!
And the opposite message immediately promulgated by "a no 10 spokesperson".
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... ers-claims

Jonathan
My concern is that people who don't want to self-isolate will take the message that suits them and ignore the subsequent opposite message.

Ian
Maillot Rouge
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Joined: 12 Nov 2020, 9:24pm

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Maillot Rouge »

Jdsk wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 12:27pm I was asking if citing the current evidence was a good way to contribute to the debate.

I'm moderately familiar with the range of opinions.

Jonathan
The trouble is the evidence is contradictory and changes daily.
Jdsk
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Jdsk »

The evidence on wearing masks, the importance of good ventilation, that risks are greater indoors than outdoors, and go up with the time spent with other people hasn't changed direction in the last year, let alone daily. But it has got stronger.

Jonathan
Oldjohnw
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Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Oldjohnw »

Maillot Rouge wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 1:01pm
Jdsk wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 12:27pm I was asking if citing the current evidence was a good way to contribute to the debate.

I'm moderately familiar with the range of opinions.

Jonathan
The trouble is the evidence is contradictory and changes daily.
The evidence doesn’t change daily. It is still developing - that is science.
John
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Psamathe »

Maillot Rouge wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 1:01pm
Jdsk wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 12:27pm I was asking if citing the current evidence was a good way to contribute to the debate.

I'm moderately familiar with the range of opinions.

Jonathan
The trouble is the evidence is contradictory and changes daily.
Can you provide any sources showing the evidence on aerosol transmission "changing daily"? Most of the research I've seen over this year identifies droplet and airborne (i.e. aerosols) transmission an significant.

Political ideology might be changing daily but evidence (i.e. scientific research) seems more consistent. But also it is complex as different research will often study different sets of circumstances which does not mean different findings are contradictory.

Ian
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Maillot Rouge wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 1:59pm My concerns are not with the evidence. Someone pointed out they don’t like masks.They were accused of being the reason ‘we can’t have nice things’.
No - that person did not say that they didn't like masks. That would have been a reasonable comment, there are plenty of things I don't like, but still do for the benefit of society.

What that person said was incorrect:
But will you wear a mask voluntarily for the sake of others?
The simple answer is no. It’s not an airborne virus, never was, never will be, it’s primary transmission pathway is touch / close contact. There were computer models produced very early on, using calculations, based on size and weight of the Virons, that showed them essentially dropping like stones once expelled on normal breathing. If aerosols are generated by certain conditions ( surgical procedures mostly) then a proper high spec mask would be sensible, for the medics / anyone else in your immediate vicinity, but they serve no useful purpose in everyday situations. Most of the contraptions that the majority of folk use to cover their faces are less than useless, some higher spec ( N95 etc ) masks are overkill, unless in very specific circumstances. Walking around a shop / pub whatever, breathing normally isn’t one of them. So I’m glad the people in charge have finally seen sense.
The virus is known to be airborne, and masks, even basic cloth masks, have been shown to be an effective measure to reduce transmission of the virus from those who have it (whether or not they are symptomatic) to those who don't.
That is a direct, and significant, influence on the R number. That means it has a direct, and significant, influence on the number of hospitalisations and the number of deaths.

Are they perfect? No, absolutely not.
Do they make a substantial difference? Yes.

People who ignore this do two things:
- They directly contribute to a significant increase in deaths both from COVID and from other illnesses which could have been treated had hospitals not been full of COVID patients.
- They directly contribute to a significant increase in infections, and therefore a significantly higher rate of mutation and, given the current prevalence of partly vaccinated people, a much higher chance of finding a vaccine resistant mutation.


I won't call someone who doesn't like masks a loon, but I will still be strongly suggesting that they suck it up and wear one for the relatively short time each day when it makes most difference to society.
For those who *can't* wear a mask of the conventional type exceptions must be made, but that is not what we are talking about here.
Last edited by [XAP]Bob on 20 Jul 2021, 3:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Mick F
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by Mick F »

Manc33 wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 8:48am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 8:20amIn what way are masks restrictive that pants aren’t?
My nuts don't need to breathe - my mouth does though.
Just an aside to this.

Not worn underpants since the early 1990's? and perhaps many years before that, and I have no intention of wearing underwear of any sort for the rest of my life.
Mick F. Cornwall
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Covid-19 : 2nd Lockdown 2020 : 3rd Lockdown 2021

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Mick F wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 3:41pm
Manc33 wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 8:48am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 20 Jul 2021, 8:20amIn what way are masks restrictive that pants aren’t?
My nuts don't need to breathe - my mouth does though.
Just an aside to this.

Not worn underpants since the early 1990's? and perhaps many years before that, and I have no intention of wearing underwear of any sort for the rest of my life.
Then read it in USian...
I am pretty confident that although you may enjoy the air on your skin at home you wear clothing when going to the pub to quaff your chosen beverage.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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