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Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 4:09pm
by al_yrpal
thirdcrank wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Its been widely reported that SOME Home Office staff wouldnt and were unsupporting to the Minister. Was it a case of a male Senior Civil Servant, a product of Cambridge, Harvard and Dulwich College objected to being instructed to perform by a stroppy little Asian woman, a product of a minor University? Its possible... The First Division is practically an impenetrable closed old boys club which sticks together as you probably know. Sir Humphrey lives... Barbara Castle got things done though!


Al

Get your name down to replace Sir Alex Allan as Johson's advisor on the Ministerial Code. You seem to be just the type he goes for. (As an advisor, of course, not in the Biblical sense.)


Why you readily accept one side of an argument without questioning it beats me? Would you be so partisan if it concerned the Labour Party? My type is someone who listens to all the evidence irrespective of politics and asks questions. < SNIP - insult removed., >

Al

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 4:19pm
by Bonefishblues
The evidence says it happened on multiple occasions. PP also accepts it happened. The behaviour amounted to bullying. What's material that's missing?

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 4:21pm
by thirdcrank
Perhaps the reason for not interviewing Sir Philip Rutnam was that he has an unfair dismissal case ongoing against the government. ie I think it might have been considered improper to do so.

==============================================================

Al

I'm not readily accepting one side of anything although I think it's pretty much accepted that the report said she had breached the Ministerial Code.

Against that, you have trotted out stereotypes and your own attempt at a possible alternative version that fits your own ideology. That's what I'm not readily accepting.

One thing I've not been able to discover is who appointed Sir Alex Allan or the procedure for doing so. I can see he's a career civil servant, but nothing more about this.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 4:22pm
by kwackers
al_yrpal wrote:Why you readily accept one side of an argument without questioning it beats me? Would you be so partisan if it concerned the Labour Party? My type is someone who listens to all the evidence irrespective of politics and asks questions. You just chant the mantra like the sheep in Animal Farm and issue irrelevant and untrue insults.

Al

My sides are splitting fit to burst!
Mind you I am a "trot".

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 4:24pm
by Bonefishblues
thirdcrank wrote:Perhaps the reason for not interviewing Sir Philip Rutnam was that he has an unfair dismissal case ongoing against the government. ie I think it might have been considered improper to do so.

==============================================================

Al

I'm not readily accepting one side of anything although I think it's pretty much accepted that the report said she had breached the Ministerial Code.

Against that, you have trotted out stereotypes and your own attempt at a possible alternative version that fits your own ideology. That's what I'm not readily accepting.

One thing I've not been able to discover is who appointed Sir Alex Allan or the procedure for doing so. I can see he's a career civil servant, but nothing more about this.

Aiui Sir Allan is the PM's advisor on the Ministerial Code. As such it was his responsibility to investigate any alleged breach on behalf of the PM

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 4:37pm
by Oldjohnw
al_yrpal wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Its all coming out now. The guy heading the Witch Hunt for 8 months never even spoke to Priti...doh! And the ninnys didnt like working weekends? Obviously 2 sides to this debacle.

Al


Complete c**p, Al. It is absolute nonsense that Home Office Civil Servants didn't work weekends. It is true that the department has been quite disfunctional for many years but I fail to see how that justifies bullying.


Its been widely reported that SOME Home Office staff wouldnt and were unsupporting to the Minister. Was it a case of a male Senior Civil Servant, a product of Cambridge, Harvard and Dulwich College objected to being instructed to perform by a stroppy little Asian woman, a product of a minor University? Its possible... The First Division is practically an impenetrable closed old boys club which sticks together as you probably know. Sir Humphrey lives... Barbara Castle got things done though!

Al


Al

2+2 does not = 5.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 5:02pm
by thirdcrank
Bonefishblues wrote: ... Aiui Sir Allan is the PM's advisor on the Ministerial Code. As such it was his responsibility to investigate any alleged breach on behalf of the PM


I've got that bit. What I couldn't find out quickly was how he was appointed. ie Did the present PM appoint him or was he inherited from a previous PM? Assuming his appointment was carried out correctly, then that shouldn't matter. IIRC, the role and the Code are quite recent innovations (under Blair?) to give some credibility to the concept of ministerial responsibility.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 5:05pm
by Jdsk
Appointed 1 November 2011.

PAC examination of the post:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmpubadm/1761/176104.htm

Jonathan

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 5:30pm
by thirdcrank
Jdsk wrote:Appointed 1 November 2011.

PAC examination of the post:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmpubadm/1761/176104.htm

Jonathan


Thanks for that. It looks as though the appendices will take some reading. At first glance, it looks as though this post was originally more about conflicts of interest than personal (mis)behaviour.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 6:27pm
by Bonefishblues
Jdsk wrote:Appointed 1 November 2011.

PAC examination of the post:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmpubadm/1761/176104.htm

Jonathan

...and some other interesting reading. See particularly p16 onwards.

Noteworthy is that the role does not have the power to commission its own enquiry, it has to be at the request of the PM (unlike, for instance, the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner).

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn03750/

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 7:19pm
by thirdcrank
The fundamental question is whether the role contributes to improving public confidence in our institutions by subjecting them to objective appraisal or whether it's just more spin.

The constitutional point is that the PM has to be able to govern with the consent of Parliament. Not quite the same as what he thinks he can get away with. We give huge power to our PM. It's been described as a serial dictatorship. This is just one small check on that and our PM seems to have brushed it aside for party political reasons.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 22 Nov 2020, 7:32pm
by Paulatic
al_yrpal wrote:[

Its been widely reported that SOME Home Office staff wouldnt and were unsupporting to the Minister. Was it a case of a male Senior Civil Servant, a product of Cambridge, Harvard and Dulwich College objected to being instructed to perform by a stroppy little Asian woman, a product of a minor University? Its possible... The First Division is practically an impenetrable closed old boys club which sticks together as you probably know. Sir Humphrey lives... Barbara Castle got things done though!

Al


Is that the result of the Hostile Environment Mrs May introduced to the Home Office.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 23 Nov 2020, 6:36am
by Oldjohnw
The FDA is not a closed old boys club. It is open to all civil servants above a certain grade and has been led by women.

Of course some people don't want to work at weekends (Al's initial comment implied all, not some). Just repeating DM stuff is a silly exercise. Al then merges his comments with something about being educated at Dulwich and Cambridge. Basically, what Al says here is a fact free zone full of unconnected prejudices.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 23 Nov 2020, 5:33pm
by Oldjohnw
Every PM updates the Ministerial Code of Conduct and I understand that each successive iteration is more strict than the previous one, and Johnson's update is no different.

His preview to the current version reads as follows;

"There must be no bullying and no harassment; no leaking; no breach of collective responsibility. No misuse of taxpayer money and no actual or perceived conflicts of interest.”

On this basis I suspect that every cabinet minister and most recent public appointments should resign.

Re: Repeated Bullying By Your Boss

Posted: 24 Nov 2020, 4:12pm
by pete75
Paulatic wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Well having managed all sorts in my career, as well as 6 years experience in the Civil Service, and then as a manager company director and business owner I believe my personal experience is a little wider than managing a herd of sheep. That probably colours my judgement.
Sir Humphrey was obviously highly irritated at being shouted at and having his weekends disrupted. Patel is obviously bombastic with a robust management style. Whether thats in the public interest is in the hands of the PM and he made HIS decision.

Al

Thanks Al for succinctly making my point.

Just be grateful you never employed me and told me I was f******g useless.

ps when you’ve a minute can you explain how managing an agricultural business is different to other businesses? Just asking for a friend :wink:


Typical urban viewpoint.

I've reasonably wide experience and have often encountered the "I've done this, I've done that", look how good I am, full of bluster type of old fashioned manager. They're very successful in their own minds.