Do Not Resuscitate

[mercalia]

People who are over 65 might like to read this story even if they hate the Daily Mail.

Pensioners were given the 'Do Not Resuscitate' notices against their wishes
Now NHS England plans to give everyone aged over 65 a 'national frailty score'
The new programme involves a 'geriatric assessment', sometimes by phone


These four pensioners are bravely fighting back against a draconian NHS policy that sees over-65s assessed for frailty and handed notices saying they will be denied resuscitation if they suffer a heart attack or stop breathing.

Bob, Peter, Stella and Shirley have all told the Mail they were slapped with a DNAR (do not attempt resuscitation) order against their wishes.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9052831/How-dare-NHS-throw-scrapheap.html

[Jdsk]

Or they could read the NHS information about the Frailty Index and its purpose:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/clinical-policy/older-people/frailty/frailty-risk-identification/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/clinical-policy/older-people/frailty/

Jonathan

[mercalia]

Or they could read the NHS information about the Frailty Index and its purpose:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/clinical-policy/older-people/frailty/frailty-risk-identification/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/clinical-policy/older-people/frailty/

Jonathan

or you could read the particular reports from individuals where it seems to have been subverted

[Jdsk]

It's not yet clear what happened in those cases.

The Daily Mail article doesn't give sources that would help anyone who wants to understand the Frailty Index. Of course it's clearly fit for the purpose of scaremongering.

Jonathan

[mercalia]

It's not yet clear what happened in those cases.

The Daily Mail article doesn't give sources that would help anyone who wants to understand the Frailty Index. Of course it's clearly fit for the purpose of scaremongering.

Jonathan

well its not as if this type of thing hasnt happened before?

This drive follows the much-hated Liverpool Care Pathway, scrapped in 2014, which denied patients water when they were dying in hospitals, care homes or hospices

from the DM

The letters and emails flooded in after we revealed the experience of Lucy Jeal, 93, who in September opened the door of her South London council flat to a 'frailty nursing practitioner'.

After an hour-long conversation, Lucy was told she would be sent a DNAR because she is frail.

The next day the red-lined order arrived by post, signed by a consultant in geriatric care at nearby Guy's and St Thomas' Hospital and the frailty nurse who had visited.

Lucy was expected to put the order on her wall to warn ambulance crews, paramedics and doctors not to resuscitate her.

Lucy, who goes out walking each day and does her own shopping, says she never agreed to it and is now frightened. Her son Raymond, 66, was equally disturbed and has told Guy's and St Thomas' to remove the DNAR from her file.

You claiming this just made up?

One strong point about the DM what ever its failings is it seems to report particular experiences of people on the ground.

[axel_knutt]

The issue isn't about whether people should be resuscitated, clearly there will some whose best interests aren't served by further resuscitation, the problem is who makes the decision. Here's an example from the Gosport enquiry:

in many ways [he] was quite a difficult patient....I remember having a conversation with one of the other auxiliaries.....we agreed that if he wasn’t careful he would ‘talk himself onto a syringe driver’.....One day I left work after my shift and he was his normal self. Upon returning to work the following day I was shocked to find him on a syringe driver and unconscious ….I said ‘Did you tell him he’d be dead at the end of this?’....[The nurse] was unable to answer me.

I'd be very surprised if it were even possible for most patients to find out whether there's a DNR on their record. I've been deliberately harmed three times in revenge for making a complaint about them lying, so I have no doubt at all that there will be a DNR on my record, but it's not on any of the records they've disclosed to me. They did put a false diagnosis of dementia on my record eight days after receiving my complaint, though.

[Jdsk]

For records held by NHS organisations in England:

"How do I get a copy of my health (medical) records?"
https://www.england.nhs.uk/contact-us/how-can-we-help/how-do-i-get-a-copy-of-my-health-medical-records/

Jonathan

[[XAP]Bob]

Or they could read the NHS information about the Frailty Index and its purpose:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/clinical-policy/older-people/frailty/frailty-risk-identification/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/clinical-policy/older-people/frailty/

Jonathan

or you could read the particular reports from individuals where it seems to have been subverted

No good saying "it's been subverted" without actually describing *what* has been subverted.

[thirdcrank]

Anecdote:-

Long before my mother died, I knew her wishes and it was only the law on Murder which prevented me from carrying them out as she lingered "tough as boots."

Long before that, I was asked by one of the devoted care assistants in the residential home about my views on DNR. After a bit of beating about the bush, it slowly dawned on me that the doctor had already made the order so we were just going through some sort of redundant rigmarole. My views, or my version of what I believed to be my mother's, were by then utterly irrelevant.

The introduction of Lasting Powers of Attorney may have altered things a bit, in those cases where somebody has had the foresight to make one.

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

[Pastychomper]

This is not the first time this year that DNR has been in the news.
Here's another: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-52217868
and: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 61201.html

A lot of the reporting is likely to be a case of reporters jumping on the bandwagon, but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of dodgy DNRs for them to find. If I didn't know better I might think someone was hoping to get (in?)voluntary euthanasia back in the headlines - for one reason or the other.

[Jdsk]

A lot of the reporting is likely to be a case of reporters jumping on the bandwagon, but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of dodgy DNRs for them to find.

It's an inherently difficult problem, many individual and families find it hard to talk about beforehand, and there's often a lot of grief and regret afterwards.

There's a lot that we can do individually and with our families to avoid the problems. Please don't put it off.

Jonathan

PS: I strongly recommend Rachel Clarke's "Dear Life": https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50935544-dear-life

[mercalia]

Anecdote:-

Long before my mother died, I knew her wishes and it was only the law on Murder which prevented me from carrying them out as she lingered "tough as boots."

Long before that, I was asked by one of the devoted care assistants in the residential home about my views on DNR. After a bit of beating about the bush, it slowly dawned on me that the doctor had already made the order so we were just going through some sort of redundant rigmarole. My views, or my version of what I believed to be my mother's, were by then utterly irrelevant.

The introduction of Lasting Powers of Attorney may have altered things a bit, in those cases where somebody has had the foresight to make one.

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

on the matter of Hospices at end of life an aunt of mine had terminal cancer and she briefly went into one but they pressured her into leaving her valuable house to them so she left and died at home - she was found dead, she died alone it seeems in great pain.

[bikepacker]

Due to a botched cancer operation my wife was rushed into hospital in a very bad state, late on a Saturday evening just over two years ago. I stayed with her until the early hours when I was advised to go home and get some rest. Next morning, I got to the hospital at around 7.00 am to find my wife still on a trolley in Casualty looking much worse than the previous evening, with no one attending to her. While trying to find out what was going on a staff nurse came and told me they were moving her to the High Dependency Unit.

There they hooked up to a few different monitors and two drips into her arms. A doctor then appeared and without looking at Pauline informed me that they were issuing a DNAR order on her. When I questioned him as to why he just shrugged his shoulders. Immediately his pager went off and he said I have to go I am wanted elsewhere. I tried to get answers from nurses but none were allowed to say anything.

Later that evening she was moved to a private room on a ward, where a nurse confirmed the order which she said tied her hands. She did say come back early next morning to see a consultant on the ward. The consultant said Pauline was not in any immediate danger although very ill and the fact she had cancer had contributed to the order. I tried in vain through normal and backdoor channels to find out who the doctor was who issued the order but no one would tell me. All I found out was that he was an agency doctor covering over the weekend.

On the Tuesday I stayed with Pauline until about 9.00 pm and as I left the ward a nurse I had not seen before gave me an envelope. I opened it at home to find the red DNAR order inside which I immediately shredded. It was three days before Pauline had recovered enough for me to tell her what had happened suffice to say she was shocked.

After two long stays in hospital, chemotherapy and long convalescence she was back on her bike within a year and doing good rides. As she is in her mid-70s she will never completely recover her fitness but she still clocks up the miles albeit slower than before it all happened.

[mercalia]

Its stories like that the D.M has been getting I think as they claim to have been inundated. The D.M is to be applauded in spending so much time detailing the ones they chose to mention providing faces to them

[Psamathe]

I'd been meaning to set one up last year but subsequent experiences have made me think on it more. So for me it's a wait and reflect on what the consequences may be.

Ian