If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Poll runs till 31 Jan 2021, 4:35pm

Vote for the Trade Agreement
19
44%
Vote against the Trade Agreement
10
23%
Abstain
14
33%
 
Total votes: 43

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8968
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby al_yrpal » 2 Jan 2021, 6:57pm

reohn2 wrote:Al
You appear to be agreeing with Kwackers :roll:


Not really, worked with lots of scientists in my early and mid career at the RAE ( now Quinetic) and the Rutherford and Harwell laboratories. I cannot imagine hardly any of them wanting to go to Europe to work. America perhaps... I dont base my agreement on personalities..

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

Jdsk
Posts: 5178
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby Jdsk » 2 Jan 2021, 7:04pm

al_yrpal wrote:Not really, worked with lots of scientists in my early and mid career at the RAE ( now Quinetic) and the Rutherford and Harwell laboratories. I cannot imagine hardly any of them wanting to go to Europe to work. America perhaps... I dont base my agreement on personalities..

I base my arguments on the best available data...

Practising scientists were enormously in favour of Remaining, as were all of the learned societies that I've ever checked.
https://www.nature.com/news/scientists-say-no-to-uk-exit-from-europe-in-nature-poll-1.19636

Screenshot 2021-01-02 at 19.02.07.png

Screenshot 2021-01-02 at 19.02.38.png

Jonathan

reohn2
Posts: 40642
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby reohn2 » 2 Jan 2021, 8:01pm

Thanks Jonathan
-----------------------------------------------------------

User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 4040
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby simonineaston » 2 Jan 2021, 8:13pm

The world will always be made up of those who can accept a rational evidence-based arguement and those who can't... I think most people live in an imaginary place where their thoughts are a jumble of ideas, hopes, dreams, memories, fantasies and aspirations. Sometimes, some people are not very good at accomodating factual information into their imaginary world - their entirely natural impulse to be swayed by optimism and opportunism gets the better of them. Sometimes it matters & sometimes it doesn't. Take for example a chef. If he or she is weak at the incorporation of fact-based info. into their mental image of the world, then chaos ensues and the ensuing meal has a high risk of being inedible. On the other hand, if you attempt to steer the fortunes of an entire nation, then a Great Way to do it is to appeal to the mindset of those who do not set much store by (dull, dry & entirely uninteresting) inconveniences like facts. Likewise the meal, while potentially, in theory at least, a splendid banquet, is likely to turn out to be a Dog's Dinner.
byyeee,
SiE

kwackers
Posts: 15231
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby kwackers » 2 Jan 2021, 9:14pm

If "Al-Someones-Pal" would have had any current knowledge of scientists then he'd have known most supported staying in the EU because that's where the money is and where most of the grants come from.
Science is expensive, countries band together to do it.

Not much you can do when people base their opinions on the way the world used to be rather than how it is.

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8968
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby al_yrpal » 2 Jan 2021, 10:15pm

Just wondering how many UK scientists will actually decide to desert the UK for the Valhalla of the EU? As a guide what percentage of the committed Remainers posting here are intending to head East? Any takers? If not what do they intend to do?

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

Jdsk
Posts: 5178
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby Jdsk » 2 Jan 2021, 10:43pm

al_yrpal wrote:Just wondering how many UK scientists will actually decide to desert the UK for the Valhalla of the EU?

That would be after they've died in combat?

Jonathan

reohn2
Posts: 40642
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby reohn2 » 2 Jan 2021, 11:10pm

al_yrpal wrote:Just wondering how many UK scientists will actually decide to desert the UK for the Valhalla of the EU?

No one knows ,but there's less chance they'll further science if they can't afford to continue being scientists.

As a guide what percentage of the committed Remainers posting here are intending to head East? Any takers? If not what do they intend to do?

Al

I'll tell you what I intend doing,because my wife has a degenerative disease and is frail and frightened because of it,we'll stay here because it's home and because our family lives close by.
But were I a young man with a young family I'd seriously consider leaving the UK for Europe.


It's very easy for you to post statements from where you are in your life,like me you're in the end quarter of your life and relatively financially secure,we also have the benefit of the overview of that life to look back on.
IMHO the UK is at a turning point in it's history,but unlike you I believe it's for the worst,yes it'll continue to survive but not as well as it would've if it remained in the EU,and the people who'll feel it worst will be the ordinary wo/man on the street the ones who have ordinary jobs and have seen their standard of living reduce during the past ten years and will see it reduce further in the next ten.That won't all be due to brexit,the pandemic will also have and effect too,but brexit will be a big chunk of it.
You seem to see the country as a business.
It isn't.
It's far more than that.
-----------------------------------------------------------

pete75
Posts: 13646
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby pete75 » 3 Jan 2021, 9:28am

al_yrpal wrote:Just wondering how many UK scientists will actually decide to desert the UK for the Valhalla of the EU? As a guide what percentage of the committed Remainers posting here are intending to head East? Any takers? If not what do they intend to do?

Al

The answer from those on the right - people who disagree with you should leave the country. Well that's how it starts. History shows it often gets much worse. Fortunately not even Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage would agree with AL.

pete75
Posts: 13646
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby pete75 » 3 Jan 2021, 9:29am

Jdsk wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Just wondering how many UK scientists will actually decide to desert the UK for the Valhalla of the EU?

That would be after they've died in combat?

Jonathan

With a hand on their sword or axe.

kwackers
Posts: 15231
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby kwackers » 3 Jan 2021, 11:26am

al_yrpal wrote:Just wondering how many UK scientists will actually decide to desert the UK for the Valhalla of the EU? As a guide what percentage of the committed Remainers posting here are intending to head East? Any takers? If not what do they intend to do?

Al

It's a bit more complicated than that.
Science these days is often big and expensive. It involves multiple disciplinaries across multiple countries each doing their bit. A guy I know here in the UK did a lot of work on the electromagnets in CERN whilst working as head of physics in Liverpool.
The EU pours billions into science projects across a lot of countries.

If we can't be part of that then those scientists either have to find alternative funding or work on less prestigious stuff.
There are of course a lot of fairly average scientists, no doubt content to accept what little funding they get but is that true of the decent ones?

What about the decent scientists we used to attract from overseas often using such projects as a draw?
Are they still coming?

However you try to colour it science in the UK has taken a big hit.

I know you like to ridicule me for reading New Scientist but I'm pretty sure their handle on things is better than what you know from speaking to some "mates" several decades ago.

Jdsk
Posts: 5178
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby Jdsk » 3 Jan 2021, 11:39am

kwackers wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Just wondering how many UK scientists will actually decide to desert the UK for the Valhalla of the EU? As a guide what percentage of the committed Remainers posting here are intending to head East? Any takers? If not what do they intend to do?

It's a bit more complicated than that.
Science these days is often big and expensive. It involves multiple disciplinaries across multiple countries each doing their bit. A guy I know here in the UK did a lot of work on the electromagnets in CERN whilst working as head of physics in Liverpool.
The EU pours billions into science projects across a lot of countries.

If we can't be part of that then those scientists either have to find alternative funding or work on less prestigious stuff.
There are of course a lot of fairly average scientists, no doubt content to accept what little funding they get but is that true of the decent ones?

What about the decent scientists we used to attract from overseas often using such projects as a draw?
Are they still coming?

However you try to colour it science in the UK has taken a big hit.

I know you like to ridicule me for reading New Scientist but I'm pretty sure their handle on things is better than what you know from speaking to some "mates" several decades ago.

Yes, the question entirely missed the main reason why so many scientists and societies are concerned about the UK's withdrawal. And that reason is totally obvious from reading the advice from the Royal Society:
https://royalsociety.org/search/?query=brexit

Science works better, faster and cheaper with collaboration. And one scientist migrating to another country doesn't provide that. What does is joint programmes and widespread exchange, especially early in careers.

Jonathan

User avatar
al_yrpal
Posts: 8968
Joined: 25 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
Contact:

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby al_yrpal » 3 Jan 2021, 3:12pm

Makes one wonder why the EU are trying to freeze us out because research cooperation has little to do with the single market.

Lots of sour grapes around I suspect. Willing us to fail...

CERN is multinational. More to do with the UN than the EU. How do you move and precisely position a 110 tonne magnet every day. Ask me ( the p_p experiment)!

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

Jdsk
Posts: 5178
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby Jdsk » 3 Jan 2021, 3:16pm

al_yrpal wrote:Makes one wonder why the EU are trying to freeze us out because research cooperation has little to do with the single market.

Please could you give us a single piece of evidence that "the EU are trying to freeze us out of" any science programme.

(It looks as if we're going to be able to move to Associate status in Horizon. We're not trying to stay in Erasmus+.)

Jonathan

kwackers
Posts: 15231
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: If you were an MP how would you vote on Brexit Trade deal?

Postby kwackers » 3 Jan 2021, 3:29pm

al_yrpal wrote:How do you move and precisely position a 110 tonne magnet every day. Ask me ( the p_p experiment)!

Al

CERN doesn't have moving magnets.
They're superconducting and electrically steered.
Last thing you'd want is a huge moving superconducting magnet held at close to absolute zero. How would you move the cooling pipes at that temp without something breaking?
It's one of the reason it takes them months to start it up from "warm".
al_yrpal wrote:Makes one wonder why the EU are trying to freeze us out because research cooperation has little to do with the single market.

"Freeze us out"...

That's a bizarre notion.
We left.
When they're considering handing out science budgets on what planet would we expect to be included?

Of course there's research with EU countries we can take part in although movement restrictions can make that a bit more difficult than previously.