Scotland - do you predict that it will be an independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

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Scotland - an independent nation within 10 years?

Yes
48
54%
No
41
46%
 
Total votes: 89

Jdsk
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 5:04pm You're mixing up two independent events. At the time of the 2014 referendum Scottish independence would have meant leaving EU. Aiui even the SNP now admit that was true. Voting not to leave the UK at that time of the referendum would have been the only way to remain in the eu. At that time there was no announcement or Tory policy to renegotiate nor one to have a referendum.
Look at it from the point of view of someone living in Scotland who would very much like to live in a Member State of the EU.

In the independence referendum that would have meant that a successful vote against would have meant that you continued to live in a Member State of the EU. That's what you wanted.

Then the UK decided to Leave the EU. You voted against that in the referendum, as did a majority of other people in Scotland across the whole of the country.

Now what are your options? The UK Rejoining looks remote. But independence offers a possible route... independence... application by Scotland to join the EU... Joining the EU. That's what you want.

Putting aside lies, untruths, allegations of misleading statements, what politicians said etc that looks like a consistent position and the best way of achieving something that matters to you.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by thirdcrank »

Another view of the options (mine) is that every which way = lumbered with politicians
Jdsk
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

"The UK Government has mounted a controversial legal challenge to two Holyrood Bills, arguing parts of them are unsound and encroach on Westminster sovereignty.

"The UK law officers today referred the Bills - on children’s rights and local government - to the UK Supreme Court for a ruling on their competence."


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/192 ... eme-court/

Jonathan
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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Paulatic »

the Bills, which were both passed unanimously by MSPs last month, will not receive royal assent and become law until a decision is delivered.
A Tory attack on children’s rights just to try and put Scot Parl in its place. They must hate children as much as they do Scotland.
and people wonder why we seek Independence.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 5:27pm Putting aside lies, untruths, allegations of misleading statements, what politicians said etc that looks like a consistent position and the best way of achieving something that matters to you.

Jonathan
What is the best way now wasn't the best way back then. Even if he announced intention for a referendum in 2013 (when I looked the timeliness up there was no mention of 2013 announcement only the one in 2015) that does not mean they were lying. The intention of cameron's government was clear in their campaign against leaving the EU.

My point is revisionism is in part applying current situation on the past. This is what I reject when pro Scottish independence do this by stating, as if it was fact then, that the pro union campaign outright lied about the Union being the best way to stay in the eu. That patently was untrue.
Jdsk
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 10:15am
Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 5:27pm Putting aside lies, untruths, allegations of misleading statements, what politicians said etc that looks like a consistent position and the best way of achieving something that matters to you.
What is the best way now wasn't the best way back then.
I'm not sure why you quoted me, and only what I was trying to exclude. The rest of my post was about how it looked to a particular group of voters at the time at each step of the sequence: the precise opposite of revisionism.

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 7:42pm "The UK Government has mounted a controversial legal challenge to two Holyrood Bills, arguing parts of them are unsound and encroach on Westminster sovereignty.

"The UK law officers today referred the Bills - on children’s rights and local government - to the UK Supreme Court for a ruling on their competence."


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/192 ... eme-court/

Jonathan
I can see that may easily help support for the SNP/Albino Party - England attempts to override Scottish legislature. Make anybody a bit concerned about English interference but maybe not enough to vote for independence parties move more to independence support.

Ian
Jdsk
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 11:50am
Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 7:42pm "The UK Government has mounted a controversial legal challenge to two Holyrood Bills, arguing parts of them are unsound and encroach on Westminster sovereignty.

"The UK law officers today referred the Bills - on children’s rights and local government - to the UK Supreme Court for a ruling on their competence."


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/192 ... eme-court/
I can see that may easily help support for the SNP/Albino Party - England attempts to override Scottish legislature. Make anybody a bit concerned about English interference but maybe not enough to vote for independence parties move more to independence support.
Could be. And of course our system depends on turnout as well as preference.

On at least one of the Bills apparently the vote in the Scottish Parliament was unanimous... that will skewer the other parties when campaigning restarts. And there's also the emotive aspect of children's rights.

Jonathan

PS: Can anyone find an analysis of the legal issues in HMG's applications?
Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

As to referring two voted for laws to the supreme Court for review. That is what the supreme Court is for surely? If one devolved parliament or assembly passes laws outside or believed to be outside their remit then isn't it the role of the SC to rule on it? If Westminster passed laws that were the remit of Scottish Parliament would you expect them to ignore it?

As to the subject of the law well the SNP really couldn't have picked a better area to go outside their remit on for pr purposes. Of course they had the children's best intentions to mind.

The other point is whether the law adds much to the actual legal position children are in? Anyone actually know how necessary that legislation was for child rights and protection? Iirc there was a new piece of legislation in Westminster in very recent years that convered similar matters.

I'm just a cynic when it comes to SNP intentions I know but with good reason based on the their past performances
Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 10:51am
Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 10:15am
Jdsk wrote: 12 Apr 2021, 5:27pm Putting aside lies, untruths, allegations of misleading statements, what politicians said etc that looks like a consistent position and the best way of achieving something that matters to you.
What is the best way now wasn't the best way back then.
I'm not sure why you quoted me, and only what I was trying to exclude. The rest of my post was about how it looked to a particular group of voters at the time at each step of the sequence: the precise opposite of revisionism.

Jonathan
My point was using current situation to refer to the past as lies is revisionism. The situation if snp got an independence vote was Scotland out of UK and EU but vote against independence was the only way at that time to remain. Brexit was not on the horizon because that referendum was not announced nor announced as the tory manifesto or policy at that time. Looking at other times later on is revising the situation in the 2014 referendum.
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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Paulatic »

Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 1:22pm As to the subject of the law well the SNP really couldn't have picked a better area to go outside their remit on for pr purposes. Of course they had the children's best intentions to mind.
If you had stuck to the fact SG might have gone outwith their remit then that is a possibility.
To believe it’s some huge SNP plot sounds a little or maybe a lot blinkered.
You did read the word 'unanimously' and understand it I hope.
If the 'bad SNP' can get all the other political parties to go along with their cunning plan then maybe they are so clever they should be in power?

https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and ... 761#115410
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Jdsk
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 1:22pmAs to the subject of the law well the SNP really couldn't have picked a better area to go outside their remit on for pr purposes. Of course they had the children's best intentions to mind.
The SNP don't have the power to legislate whether for PR or any other purposes.

The Scottish Parliament passed this legislation. Unanimously. Including the MSPs from other parties: that sort of unanimously.

Same point as Paulatic's.

Jonathan
Psamathe
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 1:22pm As to referring two voted for laws to the supreme Court for review. That is what the supreme Court is for surely? If one devolved parliament or assembly passes laws outside or believed to be outside their remit then isn't it the role of the SC to rule on it? If Westminster passed laws that were the remit of Scottish Parliament would you expect them to ignore it? .....
I agree. I'm not saying the UK Gov. should not be able to take the case to court, just noting how it will play with the ongoing campaigns and election in Scotland. It can only help the pro-independence parties.

I don't know the laws that are being questioned but from what others have said, pity UK didn't recognise the need and legislate before the Scottish Parliament felt it necessary. If the laws were appropriate and needed then it further highlights the shortcomings of Westminster (noting I've not had time to research what these laws are so "if" particularly important).

Ian
Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Tangled Metal »

That is my point. SNP knew how it would play which is why they ignored the request to remove iirc three sections that are effected. Thats three sections which the UK government (or rather the appropriate UK legal authority on these matters) raised as being outside the Scottish Parliament remit. They ignored it and as a result the whole legislation is on hold and referred to the SC.

That is what I mean by SNP going outside their remit for pr purposes. While in Scotland I can see how MSPs would not relish voting against this bill before important Scottish elections resulting in the bill being passed. It would have been patently clear that a British government without the issues of devolved elections would step in where perhaps the MSPs should have. That's where the SNP won out, the optics. Whether win or lose in the SC they've won the pr.

Imho there's a big problem with always being on an independence referendum footing which seems to be the SNP tactics. It plays to SNP's benefit. It seems even if they lose they'll win.
Jdsk
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 4:35pm That is my point. SNP knew how it would play which is why they ignored the request to remove iirc three sections that are effected.
Have you got a source for that request, please?

Tangled Metal wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 4:35pm Thats three sections which the UK government (or rather the appropriate UK legal authority on these matters) raised as being outside the Scottish Parliament remit.
What do you mean by the "the appropriate UK legal authority on these matters", please? Are you thinking of the legal advice provided to HMG?

Has anyone found the application to the Supreme Court yet?

Thanks

Jonathan
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