Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

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Scotland - an independent nation within 10 years?

Yes
26
67%
No
13
33%
 
Total votes: 39

mikeymo
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby mikeymo » 6 Jan 2021, 12:47pm

Jdsk wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:(Who to believe? - a professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley, who's also a former senior policy adviser at the International Monetary Fund writing in a respected broadsheet newspaper which checks things both for accuracy and against libel actions or something you think? :wink: )

Do I get the option to believe the EU's own published positions?


Probably not. We're clearly into the world of "my expert is bigger than your expert". Which is a fairly common way of "proving" something in these forums. It's almost as though people have never heard of the fallacy of "argument from authority".

Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Tangled Metal » 6 Jan 2021, 1:30pm

It makes a change from your media is more biased than mine argument we hear when discussing Scotland.

Ben@Forest
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Ben@Forest » 6 Jan 2021, 1:50pm

Tangled Metal wrote:It makes a change from your media is more biased than mine argument we hear when discussing Scotland.


With another angle on Scotland it also highlights the danger of relying on Wikipedia:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... structions.

When doing assignments for some professional qualifications (and when Wikipedia was still young) we weren't allowed to to reference from Wikipedia entries. And on QI Alan Davies told a story that he went on to Wikipedia to change a fact about himself they kept getting wrong. Very shortly afterwards it was changed back to the wrong 'fact'!

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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Paulatic » 6 Jan 2021, 4:20pm

Tangled Metal wrote:It makes a change from your media is more biased than mine argument we hear when discussing Scotland.

Well we could have your leader is more of a flag waver than mine argument. :P
EC5A868A-1509-4639-989C-BF8DB4EF7CD5.jpeg
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Ben@Forest » 6 Jan 2021, 4:36pm

Paulatic wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:It makes a change from your media is more biased than mine argument we hear when discussing Scotland.

Well we could have your leader is more of a flag waver than mine argument. :P EC5A868A-1509-4639-989C-BF8DB4EF7CD5.jpeg


One each....bet she loved that.... I saw her talk in 2019. She was OK but not great, but probably inhibited by an English audience which could have been sceptical about claims that could have gone down well with a Scottish (or certainly SNP) audience. She decidedly 'put down' a pro-independence Indy Ref 2 question.

Image

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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Paulatic » 6 Jan 2021, 5:02pm

Don’t know how other people feel but I found this one very worrying
BD11DE29-5DA6-403E-AD2E-1996E841138B.jpeg

Was he competing with Trump or Hitler?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Tangled Metal » 6 Jan 2021, 5:56pm

Whilst not a flag more a cultural symbol of Scotland, the tartan face mask certainly gives off and image of scottishness just like the UK flag with the UK prime minister gives an image of the United kingdom. Seriously, what is wrong with the UK PM holding a press conference with the flag for the UK?

This is an image of Macron in a press conference as an example of a political leader at a podium. Somehow I couldn't get just the image up.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/french-president-emmanuel-macron-holds-a-press-conference-news-photo/1180315164

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Paulatic
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Paulatic » 6 Jan 2021, 6:32pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Seriously, what is wrong with the UK PM holding a press conference with the flag for the UK?

I don’t think I’ve memories of earlier PMs always being in front of the UJ. It seems to have become prevalent since the Brexit vote.
I think a lot depends on your association with any flag on display.
Having had a cycle ride in Northern Ireland during the 'flag' season I found it very intimidating. Then to top it off coming back over on a ferry full of Orangemen. We, as a happy cycling group, kept out of the way in a corner and witnessed a lot of unpleasantness.
For me rightly or wrongly I associate the Union Jack with bigots and threatening people and of course currently it’s being associated with serial liars and something not to be trusted.
Im now also wary of any pub covered with the St George flag having stopped at a couple while cycling in England on a hot days. Neither were places I wanted to linger in.

Edit: to add I’ve just seen Trump on TV news with 10 flags behind him. Watch out for Boris increasing the number and then worry.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby thirdcrank » 6 Jan 2021, 8:24pm

Paulatic wrote: ... I’ve visited old Sarum when staying on C&CC excellently situated for the city.
While that might be an extreme example I take the point but the other extreme is highly represented high population areas can stamp their ideals on low populated areas.
If there is a formula for the EC to use and if it hasn’t changed since Thatcher days it will be more than likely divisive rather than unifying.
(My emphasis.)


If there's to be representative democracy based on constituencies, then the demarcation of those constituencies will inevitably effect the result. I've a feeling - perhaps somebody will correct or confirm this - that prior to the establishment of the Boundary Commissions the redrawing of constituency boundaries was ad hoc and to put it at its mildest, there were allegations of unfairness (as in gerrymandering.) I've a memory from perhaps the 1960s that some urban constituencies had disproportionately huge electorates (edited). There are now detailed guidelines about the size in terms of population and area but it's said that the BCs don't take account of voting patterns. While the current system was apparently established in 1986, it's hardly sound to dismiss it on that basis alone.

Wiki is here and it may well be inaccurate, but my reading of this is that the BCs are not partisan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_ ... ed_Kingdom)

My interpretation of the bit I've highlighted is that you don't believe that all voters' Xs should, as far is is reasonably possible, carry the same weight.

(Edited to replace constituencies with electorates.)
Last edited by thirdcrank on 7 Jan 2021, 9:00am, edited 1 time in total.

Mistik-ka
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Mistik-ka » 7 Jan 2021, 12:14am

thirdcrank wrote:My interpretation of the bit I've highlighted is that you don't believe that all voters' Xs should, as far is is reasonably possible, carry the same weight.

Oh what a can of worms that is! In theory, at least, a two-chambered House can provide areas with small populations some defence against the power of the populous centres. Although it may invite catcalls to bring it up as an example today of all days, it seems to me this is a justification for the U.S. Senate having two senators per state, no matter the population, whereas seats in the House of Representatives is at least theoretically based on population distribution. Canada's Senate seats are distributed by region, with a nod given to population but the overall numbers recognizing the need to represent the differing chief concerns of those regions—manufacturing, fishing, agriculture, hydrocarbon extraction, and so forth.

The Americans elect their senators, in Canada ours are appointed to vacancies by the government of the day. Where both systems fall down, of course, is that instead of being managed by thoughtful and sincere people who believe in democracy, control has fallen into the hands of professional politicians. I wish I could see how it could be rescued. :(

thirdcrank
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Jan 2021, 10:33am

I was only talking about Parliamentary elections: ie to the House of Commons. The upper chamber of the UK legislature is what I think might fashionably be described as an "eclectic mix." Of party placemen (of both sexes) political paymasters, public personalities, and a rump of hereditary peers. (I was tempted to write "posterior.")

Ben@Forest
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby Ben@Forest » 7 Jan 2021, 11:22am

thirdcrank wrote:I was only talking about Parliamentary elections: ie to the House of Commons. The upper chamber of the UK legislature is what I think might fashionably be described as an "eclectic mix." Of party placemen (of both sexes) political paymasters, public personalities, and a rump of hereditary peers. (I was tempted to write "posterior.")


There are some advantages to the HoL. Many of them have a lot of experience, they are good at scrutiny and those who have been translated from the HoC are less bound by party discipline and can stand by their principles. Some are specialists in the law, medicine, or the arts and so on. That's not to say I am against reform but a fully elected HoL would be more like the HoC is run. And I'm not sure that is a good thing.

thirdcrank
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Re: Scotland - do you predict that it will be independent administrative political entity within 10 years?

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Jan 2021, 9:41pm

Salmond accuses Sturgeon of misleading parliament

Both Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon are expected to give evidence to the committee in the coming weeks.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-55593864