Vegan "Cheese"

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mikeymo
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby mikeymo » 4 Jan 2021, 2:26pm

Jdsk wrote:Some humans have recently evolved lactase persistence, and the mechanisms are pretty well understood.


Out of interest, what are those mechanisms?

The adaption to tolerate milk is often used to refute the "paleo" diet theory. In fact it seems to be the usual one that's trotted out, which tends to make me think it might be the only one.

Not that I'm committed to any sort of dietary ideology. I don't have an axe to grind in the food wars. Well, except when I'm sharpening one to butcher the neighbours' dogs.
Last edited by mikeymo on 4 Jan 2021, 5:10pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Oldjohnw » 4 Jan 2021, 2:26pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I don't mind people liking veg cheese or whatever. But they shouldn't call it cheese. It isn't. Call it something else as a newly invented product, but not cheese.

AFAIK "they" don't call it cheese.

It's fairly well labelled on the packaging (at least looking at a quick google image search).
A lot of the packages never mentioned cheese at all and the ones that did said "cheese alternative" with greater emphasis on the word "vegan" which I suspect is a bit of a giveaway.
Interestingly "cheddar alternative" seems to be more frequently used than "cheese alternative".


...


I must admit I have never looked at this product's labelling. Just that the thread is called vegan "cheese" (yes, I saw the inverted commas".


I should realise that you cannot contradict someone called Kwackers when talking about cheese.

A slight thread merge with the R and W thread!
John

Jdsk
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Jdsk » 4 Jan 2021, 2:43pm

mikeymo wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Some humans have recently evolved lactase persistence, and the mechanisms are pretty well understood.


Out of interest, what are those mechanisms?

"Lactase persistence":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

It's a really good article, including the bit about the co-evolution of genes and culture.

And mentions the possible malaria link... yet another example of the enormous effect of malaria on humans.

Jonathan

mikeymo
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby mikeymo » 4 Jan 2021, 2:50pm

Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Some humans have recently evolved lactase persistence, and the mechanisms are pretty well understood.


Out of interest, what are those mechanisms?

"Lactase persistence":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

It's a really good article, including the bit about the co-evolution of genes and culture.

And mentions the possible malaria link... yet another example of the enormous effect of malaria on humans.

Jonathan


Thanks. I can't gain access to one of the references, so can't see how close "majority" is to "50".

kwackers
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby kwackers » 4 Jan 2021, 2:55pm

Mick F wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
kwackers wrote:The whole dairy thing is bizarre imo.
I mean nature saw fit to turn off our tolerance to lactose once we're weaned.

Worldwide it's about 50/50.
Speak to dogs and cats worldwide?
I think you'll find it 100%.

Most cats are lactose intolerant, not sure about dogs but lactose intolerance is definitely a thing in some dogs too.

That's "most" not all and definitely not 100%.

Jdsk
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Jdsk » 4 Jan 2021, 2:58pm

mikeymo wrote:I can't gain access to one of the references, so can't see how close "majority" is to "50".

This 2010 calculation gives about 35% for persistence:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048992/

Jonathan

Tangled Metal
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Jan 2021, 3:55pm

I've still not forgiven the government from WWII who allowed forb the bastardization of cheddar cheese to allow for cheap and nasty cheese replica being sold as cheddar. Thus preventing the geographical protection other regional European cheeses got. It's a crime against good food and regional specialities.

To call anything that's not made by a process that's at least equivalent to traditional cheese making a cheese is unethical because it's not cheese. My opposition is to vegan foods being called a non vegan name because it's strictly isn't equivalent. If it's good enough can't it stand under its own name, reputation and quality?

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Mick F
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Mick F » 4 Jan 2021, 4:07pm

kwackers wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Worldwide it's about 50/50.
Speak to dogs and cats worldwide?
I think you'll find it 100%.

Most cats are lactose intolerant, not sure about dogs but lactose intolerance is definitely a thing in some dogs too.

That's "most" not all and definitely not 100%.
We've had five dogs in our married life, and all have loved milk.
Maybe a dozen (or more?) cats in those years, and they've loved milk too.
Had dogs and cats all my life also, and all have loved milk.
We have an African Grey parrot, and she'll drink milk too.
All the above, have eaten cheese as well - and the parrot loves it!
100% in my estimation.



As for Johnathan's point/question, humans are only mammals. Nothing special except for our brains.
Mick F. Cornwall

Jdsk
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Jdsk » 4 Jan 2021, 4:11pm

Tangled Metal wrote:I've still not forgiven the government from WWII who allowed forb the bastardization of cheddar cheese to allow for cheap and nasty cheese replica being sold as cheddar. Thus preventing the geographical protection other regional European cheeses got. It's a crime against good food and regional specialities.

Cheddar cheese was produced in other countries before WWII. A geographically reserved name wasn't available by then with or without "Government Cheddar".

Jonathan

Jdsk
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Jdsk » 4 Jan 2021, 4:12pm

Tangled Metal wrote:To call anything that's not made by a process that's at least equivalent to traditional cheese making a cheese is unethical because it's not cheese. My opposition is to vegan foods being called a non vegan name because it's strictly isn't equivalent. If it's good enough can't it stand under its own name, reputation and quality?

Has anyone marketed the vegan products as "cheese"?

Thanks

Jonathan

mikeymo
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby mikeymo » 4 Jan 2021, 4:13pm

Mick F wrote:As for Johnathan's point/question, humans are only mammals. Nothing special except for our brains.


Here, biological taxonomy. O Level Biology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomic_rank#:~:text=There%20are%20seven%20main%20taxonomic,a%20synonym%20for%20dominion%20(lat.

Jdsk
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby Jdsk » 4 Jan 2021, 4:13pm

Mick F wrote:As for Johnathan's point/question, humans are only mammals. Nothing special except for our brains.

Which other mammals show lactase persistence?

Thanks

Jonathan

kwackers
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby kwackers » 4 Jan 2021, 4:19pm

Mick F wrote:We've had five dogs in our married life, and all have loved milk.
Maybe a dozen (or more?) cats in those years, and they've loved milk too.
Had dogs and cats all my life also, and all have loved milk.
We have an African Grey parrot, and she'll drink milk too.
All the above, have eaten cheese as well - and the parrot loves it!
100% in my estimation.



As for Johnathan's point/question, humans are only mammals. Nothing special except for our brains.

"Loving" something isn't the same as being good for them.

Cat's cant digest lactose, same as most mammals.
The necessary enzymes get turned off when they're weaned.

The affect it has on them varies, they may simply puke up, they may get diarrhea or they may simply feel off.
The idea that you can feed them milk was debunked years ago, it's like feeding children sweets. They may like it but that proves nothing.

mumbojumbo
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby mumbojumbo » 4 Jan 2021, 4:33pm

We make our own,using coconut cream and tofu,with a natural colorant.Turmeric is a good colour yellow.We strain our mixture through a Muslim Bag,to separate solids and moisture.Allow a few days for fermentation,scraping off any surface mould.In spring we add chopped wild garlic and nettles.You cannot grill unless you add some extra oil.Good when added to a beef burger.It is a genuine diary free product.

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661-Pete
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Re: Vegan "Cheese"

Postby 661-Pete » 4 Jan 2021, 4:52pm

kwackers wrote:
661-Pete wrote:Of course, if technology were to come up with an exact taste-alike for Roquefort, Stilton, Manchego, Gouda, Wensleydale, Comté, Parmesan....

Doesn't really need to be exact though does it... ;)
I mean, cheese comes in so many flavours and textures some of which IMO are genuinely worse than the vegan equivalent.
I was just listing some of my faves - yes there have got to be cheeses out there that I don't like, though I'm quite a cheese-o-phile. I suppose stuff like that synthetic 'Monterey Jack' we once had to endure, come close.

As things stand, I doubt if there's any vegan offering that would pass a sort of 'Turing test' with me: i.e. if I was fed with some unseen, I wouldn't know the difference from real cheese. But in the future, who knows? For the time being it'll have to be cow's, goat's and sheep's-milk cheese. The best we can manage is to cut down a bit. But at least I can say, I tried...

kwackers wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:I don't mind people liking veg cheese or whatever. But they shouldn't call it cheese. It isn't. Call it something else as a newly invented product, but not cheese.

AFAIK "they" don't call it cheese.
The two packs in our fridge at the moment: one of them doesn't mention 'cheese' at all (though it does mention 'cheddar'), the other pack only in the phrase "takes longer to melt than traditional cheese". I think they're not allowed to call it cheese. That's fine by me, though I do object to diktats like the recent French one (since retracted) forbidding calling veggie sausages 'sausages'. If you carry this PC trope too far it'll just get confusing.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).