District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

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colin54
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District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby colin54 » 5 Jan 2021, 8:43pm

I'd ridden by this stone block wall on Course Lane, Newburgh, West Lanc's, for about four 1/2 years and only realised last summer that it's a parapet for a culvert outlet which runs underneath a housing estate for 1/2 a mile or so and Course Lane itself, emerging as a stream which carrys on down to the River Douglas, or possibly The Leeds-Liverpool Canal.
This is the question, nicely carved into the stonework and filled with mortar are the words 'District Tict' (both capitalised).
'Tict in' Scots is tight, but I can't find any other meaning relating to bridges/ducts etc, is it a purely local word,
or could it actually mean tight (as in restricting the water flow) ?
I've looked on the local history site and there was nothing there, that I could see.
Any ideas anyone ?
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P1120444.JPG

peetee
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby peetee » 6 Jan 2021, 6:01am

Could it be an error caused by the removal of the stones and their replacement in a different position? ‘Tict’ is across two stones. Perhaps there was a third? The whole thing has been filled with mortar after all.
Winter had arrived in the land of Kernow. Along with it came wet roads and cool winds.
“Oh, my wheels and coupling rods!” Peetee exclaimed.

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Paulatic
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby Paulatic » 6 Jan 2021, 7:12am

I wondered too if the r was lost or maybe it was a w :D
viewtopic.php?t=143287
The Tict has a Capital T which dismisses that theory doesn’t it ?
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colin54
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby colin54 » 6 Jan 2021, 7:18am

peetee wrote:Could it be an error caused by the removal of the stones and their replacement in a different position? ‘Tict’ is across two stones. Perhaps there was a third? The whole thing has been filled with mortar after all.

Thanks for that peetee. That thought had occured to me and is a possibility of course, but what could the word have been, starting with a capital T then next letter i ;...Ti......that would make sense in this setting ?
Edit : Droll paulatic, 'a local thing' ! For local people....
Indeed, the capital T is an important part of the conundrum.
The stream passes by the site of an old 18/19 century colliery on it's way to down stream, if this could be any sort of clue.

peetee
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby peetee » 6 Jan 2021, 9:13am

colin54 wrote:
peetee wrote:Could it be an error caused by the removal of the stones and their replacement in a different position? ‘Tict’ is across two stones. Perhaps there was a third? The whole thing has been filled with mortar after all.

Thanks for that peetee. That thought had occured to me and is a possibility of course, but what could the word have been, starting with a capital T then next letter i ;...Ti......that would make sense in this setting ?.


How long are the stones? Perhaps Ti is the start of one word and ct the end of another?
Winter had arrived in the land of Kernow. Along with it came wet roads and cool winds.
“Oh, my wheels and coupling rods!” Peetee exclaimed.

DaveReading
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby DaveReading » 6 Jan 2021, 9:18am

A grid ref would be nice, then we can all have a look on Streetview.

colin54
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby colin54 » 6 Jan 2021, 9:33am

The Tict is not very clear on Street View due to blurring but you can see the stone lay-out and the capital T of tict to give you an idea'

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58646 ... 8192?hl=en
So the 'T&i' are on side of the block with 'District' on and the 'ct' is at the start of the adjacent block .
I've assumed ,perhaps incorrectly, that the letters have been filled in to preserve them, like some grave inscriptions are filled with lead.
Why would the mason bother preserving the carved letters if the meaning was being lost anyway due to a block possibly being replaced ?
I might use my exercise today to see if I can get a picture of the blocks from the other side, possibly a block has been replaced back to front and 1-across !
I wonder if Mick F can remember what it was like in his day ?

reohn2
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jan 2021, 10:03am

I've been puzzling over it myself.It's a conundrum for sure,with no simply explanation apparently :?
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colin54
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby colin54 » 6 Jan 2021, 10:59am

peetee wrote:
How long are the stones? Perhaps Ti is the start of one word and ct the end of another?

P1120443.JPG

To give you a bit more of an idea ,the 'Ti' is just next to my pannier in this picture.

peetee
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby peetee » 6 Jan 2021, 12:08pm

Looking at maps and aerial views of the area I would surmise that the watercourse lead into the river before the canal intercepted its path. It’s not clear if the stream now runs into a culvert beneath the canal. Perhaps if it was insignificant and truncated the wording indicates a tightening of local bylaws such that it could no longer be used as a land drain for the disposal of unwanted liquids such as slurry, household effluent, light industrial waste etc. I have no idea if this practice was widespread but where else was that sort of thing disposed of? These days there are plenty of people who are happy to contribute to waste if it becomes someone else’s problem. I’m not sure human behaviour has changed that much.
Winter had arrived in the land of Kernow. Along with it came wet roads and cool winds.
“Oh, my wheels and coupling rods!” Peetee exclaimed.

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 6 Jan 2021, 12:10pm

peetee wrote:Could it be an error caused by the removal of the stones and their replacement in a different position? ‘Tict’ is across two stones. Perhaps there was a third? The whole thing has been filled with mortar after all.


That does seem plausible. I'm not necessarily convinced it's "Ti" either - the "i" doesn't have the top serif of the other "i"s, nor the dot. It could maybe be the start of a "u".
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Jdsk
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby Jdsk » 6 Jan 2021, 12:49pm

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
peetee wrote:Could it be an error caused by the removal of the stones and their replacement in a different position? ‘Tict’ is across two stones. Perhaps there was a third? The whole thing has been filled with mortar after all.

That does seem plausible. I'm not necessarily convinced it's "Ti" either - the "i" doesn't have the top serif of the other "i"s, nor the dot. It could maybe be the start of a "u".

"-ct" would offer "jct" for "junction. "-uct" would offer "aqueduct".

Jonathan

reohn2
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jan 2021, 1:21pm

peetee wrote:Looking at maps and aerial views of the area I would surmise that the watercourse lead into the river before the canal intercepted its path. It’s not clear if the stream now runs into a culvert beneath the canal. Perhaps if it was insignificant and truncated the wording indicates a tightening of local bylaws such that it could no longer be used as a land drain for the disposal of unwanted liquids such as slurry, household effluent, light industrial waste etc. I have no idea if this practice was widespread but where else was that sort of thing disposed of? These days there are plenty of people who are happy to contribute to waste if it becomes someone else’s problem. I’m not sure human behaviour has changed that much.

The stream/brook does run into the River Douglas,though the by law link is a tenuous one.Up until the 60's the River Douglas was all but an open sewer.
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reohn2
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jan 2021, 1:24pm

Jdsk wrote:
Richard Fairhurst wrote:
peetee wrote:Could it be an error caused by the removal of the stones and their replacement in a different position? ‘Tict’ is across two stones. Perhaps there was a third? The whole thing has been filled with mortar after all.

That does seem plausible. I'm not necessarily convinced it's "Ti" either - the "i" doesn't have the top serif of the other "i"s, nor the dot. It could maybe be the start of a "u".

"-ct" would offer "jct" for "junction. "-uct" would offer "aqueduct".

Jonathan

That IMO is a distinct possibility :)
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colin54
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Re: District Tict ? Newburgh W.Lancs.

Postby colin54 » 6 Jan 2021, 5:21pm

Thanks for all the replies, I had a ride down there and took a head on picture (click).
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The top of the stones taper away from the road side towards the stream so can only be fitted one way up, i.e. how they are.
To the right of 'Tict' there is some shadowing that may or may not be other worn out letters, worn very smoothly if so, there is a triangular mark there as well ( by the handlebars) perhaps of an old road sign, picture.
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I spoke to a long time local who said he had often often thought about the meaning but had no answers, but did wonder if they were re-used stones from elsewhere.
reohn2 wrote:
peetee wrote:Looking at maps and aerial views of the area I would surmise that the watercourse lead into the river before the canal intercepted its path. It’s not clear if the stream now runs into a culvert beneath the canal. Perhaps if it was insignificant and truncated the wording indicates a tightening of local bylaws such that it could no longer be used as a land drain for the disposal of unwanted liquids such as slurry, household effluent, light industrial waste etc. I have no idea if this practice was widespread but where else was that sort of thing disposed of? These days there are plenty of people who are happy to contribute to waste if it becomes someone else’s problem. I’m not sure human behaviour has changed that much.

The stream/brook does run into the River Douglas,though the by law link is a tenuous one.Up until the 60's the River Douglas was all but an open sewer.

I went along the towpath afterwards and the stream does indeed flow under the canal down into the Douglas, picture of where it comes out the other side.
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There is now a large sewage works which I believe takes Wigan's and all points between's effluent to this day, I must be psychic r2, I took a picture . As an old fisherman I'm sure you know that 'carp' flows down stream.
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I'm by no means certain but this stream may be the one which also drained Newburgh's colliery, this eventually stopped production
partly (if I remember correctly) because of drainage problems, they were getting blocked with ochre sediments ( iron bearing clay in suspension ?) You can still see the red (ochre) water coming out of the ground in these parts in places. The coal was transported away on the Douglas navigation from before the time of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal.
A link to a bit of Newburgh's industrial history.
http://newburghlancs.co.uk/landscape
Thanks again everybody.