When is remoaning not remoaning?!

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PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4089
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 20 Jan 2021, 11:38pm

^^ ben@forest
The "hard reality of cash" is something of an illusion.
Finance has become mostly just figures on a screen.
Greece's problems were largely homemade.

Broadly the EU wants the wealthy nations to help the poorer, especially in infrastructure and other areas that improve lives and promote sustainability.
Wales was a net recipient of funds, for example.

The UK is rich.
However a great many of it's citizens are not, for the vast wealth here is concentrated in relatively few powerful hands.
It is probably the most unequal society in the EU.

But our contributions were based upon our total wealth as a nation, GDP and other factors. Those contributions were the result of negotiations around the Brussels table. They were not simply levied.

The disparity of wealth in the UK is mostly based on factors not associated with ability, honesty or diligence. But upon an absolute culture of class, avarice and greed.
Many of those very rich people didn't like the coming scutiny of tax havens and offshore dodges. Many of which are still partly associated with the UK. Cayman Islands etc.

In response to the thread title I would like to know what you think we have now gained as a Nation?
From my perspective we have lost a very great deal and gained nothing that I can see.
I do not believe that the Rees Mogg's and Aaron Bank's of this country are about to share any of the tax windfall they may have gained with the likes of my manual labouring classes.
Or use it to improve housing, education and infrastructure.
That contrasts starkly with the ideals of the democratic EU.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby reohn2 » 20 Jan 2021, 11:42pm

Wot he sed ^^^
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Oldjohnw
Posts: 5991
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Location: Northumberland

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?! Moaning Thread

Postby Oldjohnw » 21 Jan 2021, 7:40am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Here we go again............... :roll:


We go because it hasn't. What was mockingly called 'Project Fear' is becoming grim reality.
John

merseymouth
Posts: 2156
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby merseymouth » 21 Jan 2021, 9:27am

Morning, Nice numbers about who pays the bills in the E.U..
So the Greeks screwed themselves up and the benevolent E.U. save their moussaka? So it wasn't the fact that the entire Euro Zone would have gone bust? So with a bit of dodgy accounting the impending crisis was averted, phew.
The Spanish financial malaise is certainly due to their government living way beyond their means. They obviously had never heard of Mr Micawber? That white elephant airport, the housing that folk couldn't buy or live in, must be much more of the same.
So with the ongoing Covid tragedy things will certainly get worse.
With regards to the blockage by E.U. member states on the UK it was obviously a known risk, if you don't keep paying the Dane Geld revenge will occur!
What we should now do is highlight the freight that is merely routed to and from the Irish Republic, prioritise goods intended for UK consumption.
Help keep the stuff filling our shelves. Ireland has ports therefore could take goods directly. Reduce pointless traffic blocking up the vital conduits!
Most of the vehicles that frequent this traffic and to Ireland make no contribution towards the upkeep of our roads, neither in V.E.D. or Fuel Duties, full tank before the ferry in both directions. Sod em!
Maybe then the Republic would review their support for the Blockade Brigade?
Newton's 5th Law of physics still applies! MM

Ben@Forest
Posts: 2828
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Ben@Forest » 21 Jan 2021, 12:07pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:^^ ben@forest
The "hard reality of cash" is something of an illusion.
Finance has become mostly just figures on a screen.
Greece's problems were largely homemade.

Broadly the EU wants the wealthy nations to help the poorer, especially in infrastructure and other areas that improve lives and promote sustainability.
Wales was a net recipient of funds, for example.

The UK is rich.
However a great many of it's citizens are not, for the vast wealth here is concentrated in relatively few powerful hands.
It is probably the most unequal society in the EU.

But our contributions were based upon our total wealth as a nation, GDP and other factors. Those contributions were the result of negotiations around the Brussels table. They were not simply levied.

The disparity of wealth in the UK is mostly based on factors not associated with ability, honesty or diligence. But upon an absolute culture of class, avarice and greed.
Many of those very rich people didn't like the coming scutiny of tax havens and offshore dodges. Many of which are still partly associated with the UK. Cayman Islands etc.

In response to the thread title I would like to know what you think we have now gained as a Nation?
From my perspective we have lost a very great deal and gained nothing that I can see.
I do not believe that the Rees Mogg's and Aaron Bank's of this country are about to share any of the tax windfall they may have gained with the likes of my manual labouring classes.
Or use it to improve housing, education and infrastructure.
That contrasts starkly with the ideals of the democratic EU.


My post was trying to show why I don't think other countries will be keen to leave the EU. We were in a unique position, a country that was a large contributor, which has a very long, slowly developing, democratic history, which does not have a sense of guilt about WW2 and has only one land border with another nation. And some may scoff at our history but I was on a course in Germany in 2019. On the same course was a Spaniard (from Barcelona and who considered himself Catalan not Spanish) and a Pole. Both of them, at different times, expressed to me their opinion that they'd prefer an EU with the UK in it precisely because of our long history of stability and democracy. It's the only time I've felt a bit guilty about Brexit.

And I've lived in Germany and speak German, and many (but by no means all) Germans like the EU because it obviates the 'need to lead' which is partly the deep sense of guilt inherited from the Third Reich. The French like it because it reins in the Germans (though Germany is not really 'first among equals' in the EU any more - it is simply first). We don't have those fears. I wish we didn't celebrate WW2 so much and get ridiculously sentimental about it; but neither has it coloured everything in the political sphere.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Jan 2021, 1:11pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
My post was trying to show why I don't think other countries will be keen to leave the EU. We were in a unique position, a country that was a large contributor, which has a very long, slowly developing, democratic history, which does not have a sense of guilt about WW2 and has only one land border with another nation. And some may scoff at our history but I was on a course in Germany in 2019. On the same course was a Spaniard (from Barcelona and who considered himself Catalan not Spanish) and a Pole. Both of them, at different times, expressed to me their opinion that they'd prefer an EU with the UK in it precisely because of our long history of stability and democracy. It's the only time I've felt a bit guilty about Brexit.

And I've lived in Germany and speak German, and many (but by no means all) Germans like the EU because it obviates the 'need to lead' which is partly the deep sense of guilt inherited from the Third Reich. The French like it because it reins in the Germans (though Germany is not really 'first among equals' in the EU any more - it is simply first). We don't have those fears. I wish we didn't celebrate WW2 so much and get ridiculously sentimental about it; but neither has it coloured everything in the political sphere.

I accept some of what you say here.
I agree about the UK's welcome pragmatism at the Brussels negotiating table. And sad departure.

One difference I do have is the "Germans like the EU because it assuages their guilt"
And "the French like it because it reigns in the Germans".

While there is an element of this, the whole picture is much more multi dimensional IMV.
Of course all is not perfect in the EU.

Nevertheless a great many Europeans support it because it gives a sense of "the greater good".
An identity beyond the small minded nationalism that has done so much damage in Europe in the past.
That is the old tragedy of Europe, and I fully include the U,K past and present, in that.
And a small mindedness newly arisen in the UK and on this very page even.
Small minded and short sighted , IMHO.

The uniqueness of the UK is overblown and overemphasized.

We are no MORE different (and we are different) than the Spanish or Portuguese from the Germans.
Or the Irish from the French etc etc.
That is, used correctly, the great hidden strength of the EU. An attempt to reconcile and build common ground for the benefit of the majority.
The EU is a beautiful diversity of culture, knowledge and so much more, that was available to us all.
I see that cooperation as more important than customs free trade.
Though the free trade obviously helps living standards.
........
As German reader this (might?) interest you.
Swiss media report that the UK Govt is not now allowing EU diplomats full diplomatic status!
(And some other stuff- sadly some of which is quite recently put behind a pay wall)
However I have not seen it reported here, though I am not avidly consuming news media.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/brexit ... duced=true

Jdsk
Posts: 5968
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Jdsk » 21 Jan 2021, 1:17pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Swiss media report that the UK Govt is not now allowing EU diplomats full diplomatic status!
(And some other stuff- sadly some of which is quite recently put behind a pay wall)
However I have not seen it reported here, though I am not avidly consuming news media.

https://www.nzz.ch/international/brexit ... duced=true

Just appeared here, open access:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/21/uk-insists-it-will-not-grant-eu-ambassador-full-diplomatic-status

Jonathan

Stevek76
Posts: 712
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Stevek76 » 21 Jan 2021, 1:17pm

Support for the EU shot up notably post 2016 in some of the EU countries covered by yougov's eurotrack polling and has generally stayed up as brexit progressed.

They don't want to leave because we've served and continue to serve as an excellent example of why it's a very bad idea. Nothing like actually going and doing something to expose the siren calls of the populists.

It's also rather simplistic to suggest it's just the money. The overall fiscal redistribution that takes place in the EU is a relatively small portion of the total GDP of the area, the advantages to removed trade barriers, and frictionless co-operation in science and cultural matters are rather more significant.

merseymouth wrote:So it wasn't the fact that the entire Euro Zone would have gone bust?


That would be as impossible as it is for the pound or dollar to go bust. It could devalue, possibly very fast (though it really takes a very unique combination of factors to cause that) but a currency can't go bust. And the euro, even in the midst of the eurozone crisis never looked like devaluing like that. It remains a fairly stable currency and stronger than it was when started (and still significantly stronger with respect to the £ than 5 years ago).

merseymouth
Posts: 2156
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby merseymouth » 21 Jan 2021, 4:29pm

Hi Stevek76, So currencies don't go bust! Did not Germany and Zimbabwe amongst others suffer the ludicrous situation of them having a higher TOG value than spending power? They were more valuable as fuel to create warmth than provide bread for the table.
Too Big To Fail, heard than before I'm sure.
Maybe you also believe the entire Bitcoin crepe? Or the Douglas Adams proposition of having leaves as a currency?? The entire money game is a con, the Emperor's New Clothes. "I Promise To Pay The Bearer On Demand---", My AR*E. MM

Stevek76
Posts: 712
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Stevek76 » 21 Jan 2021, 5:13pm

Did you miss the part about very unique combination of factors?

Post WW1 Germany owed huge quantities of debt that, critically, had to be repaid in gold or foreign currency. This is important as it prevents a fiat currency from inflating the debt away.

Zimbabwe is a total basket case and has been for decades with extensive corruption and ever dropping external confidence, before their hyperinflation they experienced years of high inflation and continued to print oodles of cash to pay government loyallists the ever increasing amount required to keep them loyal.

None of those circumstances bear any relation to the eurozone and, as said, the € has been a fairly stable currency.

kwackers
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby kwackers » 21 Jan 2021, 6:07pm

Looks like our "frictionless trade" is paying dividends.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/21/britons-buying-from-eu-websites-face-more-than-100-import-duties

I do know a few people who've been stung by this.
In theory you can just make sure the website you order from is UK based but in practice a lot actually send out goods from pretty much anywhere in the EU so you can't actually be sure.

On the plus side a fair number of sites realise the issues and are simply no longer sending goods out to UK addresses so the chances of getting stung are lessening by the day...
Part of their issue is they're meant to collect the 20% VAT at source and for the most part it just isn't worth it for them, and if they don't do it then the couriers have to.
(There are also reports of couriers refusing to move goods back and forth between us and the EU because of the cost to them and the hassle).

I'm sure one of our resident brexitears can tell us what the upside is, I'm scratching my head but can't see one.

merseymouth
Posts: 2156
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby merseymouth » 21 Jan 2021, 6:12pm

Hi again, So when Spain &Greece screwed up their money issues by failing in any form of prudence over the matter, it didn't count as risking currency meltdown because they had their fingers crossed it doesn't count? Now I get it, Mr Micawber was totally in the wrong, silly man!
*** The above post has an element of humour within its content, though the real joke must be the fiscal tests that those who wanted to participate had to meet? MM

francovendee
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Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby francovendee » 21 Jan 2021, 7:26pm

You forgot to mention Ireland, Italy and Portugal who were also in financial difficulties at the same time,
None have left the euro or the EU. Greece came closest but having looked at life outside the EU they remained.
I think they realised, unlike the UK, the benefit of being in the tent and p*****G out.

Jdsk
Posts: 5968
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Jdsk » 21 Jan 2021, 7:35pm

kwackers wrote:Looks like our "frictionless trade" is paying dividends.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/21/britons-buying-from-eu-websites-face-more-than-100-import-duties

I do know a few people who've been stung by this.
In theory you can just make sure the website you order from is UK based but in practice a lot actually send out goods from pretty much anywhere in the EU so you can't actually be sure.

On the plus side a fair number of sites realise the issues and are simply no longer sending goods out to UK addresses so the chances of getting stung are lessening by the day...
Part of their issue is they're meant to collect the 20% VAT at source and for the most part it just isn't worth it for them, and if they don't do it then the couriers have to.
(There are also reports of couriers refusing to move goods back and forth between us and the EU because of the cost to them and the hassle).

Lots on this over here: https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=142589

Jonathan

PS:
kwackers wrote:I'm sure one of our resident brexitears can tell us what the upside is, I'm scratching my head but can't see one.

Not so much on this.

Ben@Forest
Posts: 2828
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Ben@Forest » 21 Jan 2021, 8:35pm

francovendee wrote:You forgot to mention Ireland, Italy and Portugal who were also in financial difficulties at the same time,
None have left the euro or the EU. Greece came closest but having looked at life outside the EU they remained.
I think they realised, unlike the UK, the benefit of being in the tent and p*****G out.


There is a difference between the EU and the euro. The UK was never in the euro (through choice) and Greece should never have been in the euro even though it wanted to be. The fact the Greeks fudged their figures to get in was an open secret in Brussels so there was effectively collusion to allow them in. It may have been possible for the Greeks to leave the Eurozone but not the EU. Currently within the euro the Greeks have:

1. Had 8 years of having its finances kept afloat only by international creditors
2. One-third of the population below the poverty line (2017)
3. Youth unemployment is 33% (2020) and was as high as 50%
4. Scheduled debt repayments go beyond 2060
5. It is believed even more transactions in Greece are now through the black economy
6. Greece has suffered a brain drain as the best educated leave.
Last edited by Ben@Forest on 21 Jan 2021, 8:48pm, edited 1 time in total.