When is remoaning not remoaning?!

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Mike Sales
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Mike Sales » 21 Jan 2021, 8:41pm

Ben@Forest wrote: The UK was never in the euro (through choice)


Gordon Brown was right, with his five tests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_economic_tests

It will be more and more difficult to get remainers to refrain from saying, "I told you so."

francovendee
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby francovendee » 21 Jan 2021, 9:03pm

I do realize the UK wasn't in the euro but Greece was and their difficulties were home grown. A political elite who failed to raise the correct taxes from the wealthy. They could have left the EU and returned to the Drachma and walked away from the debts. The minister of finance was keen to do this as a last resort.
They didn't and continue to be saddled with the debt.
When last in Corfu 2 years ago I was told that the very rich were still very rich and the very poor very poor. The middle class have been hit very hard. Did they blame the EU? No, they blamed the corruption in their government.

Ben@Forest
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Ben@Forest » 21 Jan 2021, 9:54pm

francovendee wrote:I do realize the UK wasn't in the euro but Greece was and their difficulties were home grown. A political elite who failed to raise the correct taxes from the wealthy. They could have left the EU and returned to the Drachma and walked away from the debts. The minister of finance was keen to do this as a last resort.


The main reason the Greeks may not have left the Eurozone was because other European countries couldn't afford to let them do so - below is from The Balance:

Why Greece Didn't Leave the Eurozone

Greece could have abandoned the euro and reinstated the drachma. Without the austerity measures, the Greek government could have hired new workers. It would have lowered the 25% unemployment rate and boosted economic growth. Greece could have converted its euro-based debt to drachmas, printed more currency and lowered its euro exchange rate. That would have reduced its debt, lowered the cost of exports, and attracted tourists to a cheaper vacation destination.

At first, that would seem ideal for Greece, but foreign owners of Greek debt would have suffered debilitating losses as the drachma plummeted. That would debase the value of repayments in their own currency. Some banks would go bankrupt. Most of the debt is owned by European governments, whose taxpayers would foot the bill.

Stevek76
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Stevek76 » 21 Jan 2021, 11:18pm

Spain &Greece screwed up their money issues by failing in any form of prudence over the matter, it didn't count as risking currency meltdown because they had their fingers crossed it doesn't count?


No, because neither were large enough to bring down the entire eurozone and neither have unilateral control over the euro in order to do the one thing key thing that kills a currency: printing lots of it without the economic resources to use it. That the euro itself wasn't in any serious risk was reflected in its exchange rate, had there been any even faintly credible risk of actual problems it would have been shown by a drop against other major currencies.

This is rather like if the state of nevada got itself into major debt problems it couldn't cause the dollar to crash, or similarly as northamptonshire & croydon councils have been unable to meltdown the pound.

Oldjohnw
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Oldjohnw » 22 Jan 2021, 6:40am

Some good news: said on R4 this morning thatNissan has announced that the trade deal has enabled them to remain in the UK. Hardly s brexit gain though, as they were here before.

The UK's main exporter eels is closing though because he can't get his product either to Europe or N Ireland. We don't have a specific trade deal with potential Asian markets.

He said he voted for brexit because we were promised vast new markets. A somewhat foolish view. First, believing the type of person who made such a promise. Then, why drop a market just over the channel or Irish Sea to gain one half way around the world. And in any case, he could always have traded with Asia.
John

Tangled Metal
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Jan 2021, 7:15am

I thought Greek economy had a huge black economy before euro, always has had. It's a country where it's tax collecting organisation was never fit for purpose. Where family doctors often got paid in cash or did deals away from the tax man's scrutiny. Indeed the tax man turned a blind eye. The black economy and tax evasion are part of Greek culture that's ignored by the state. Possibly because they're taking part.

The taxation and black economy issues were a part of the problem I believe. There's so much taxation that's never collected.

Tangled Metal
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Jan 2021, 7:19am

It seems to me that the whole Brexit situation has become about point scoring from either side and not about what could be done to make it work better. I'm not meaning on forums I mean in the wider community and especially political parties. Strange idea but perhaps it's better to foster a positive outlook and look to making the future better. Or we can circle the trucks and fight the same battles over and over again. Which is the better way?

kwackers
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby kwackers » 22 Jan 2021, 7:49am

Tangled Metal wrote:It seems to me that the whole Brexit situation has become about point scoring from either side and not about what could be done to make it work better. I'm not meaning on forums I mean in the wider community and especially political parties. Strange idea but perhaps it's better to foster a positive outlook and look to making the future better. Or we can circle the trucks and fight the same battles over and over again. Which is the better way?

I don't believe that the way it's operating at the moment has anything to do with how people see it.
What you're seeing here is people trying to justify the way they voted, it has no effect on the wider operation of brexit - that's down to our politicians implementing our wishes in ways that suit them.

A positive outlook requires things to be positive about and at the moment it's all bad news.
People being clobbered with VAT and import duties. Erosion of food, work and environmental standards. Folk who have trouble spending the winter overseas. Over 90% of our EU based financial trading (and the tax receipt implications) moved abroad - it's a fairly endless list.

So all that's really required to foster this warm fuzzy feeling is for brexitears to tell us what's good - and for me personally knowing someone has a decent fishmonger or that another person didn't like the idea of living under "the boot" of the EU aren't good reasons.

Oldjohnw
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Oldjohnw » 22 Jan 2021, 8:11am

I would love to forget all about brexit. But the reality keeps getting in the way.
John

Jdsk
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Jdsk » 22 Jan 2021, 8:37am

Oldjohnw wrote:Some good news: said on R4 this morning thatNissan has announced that the trade deal has enabled them to remain in the UK. Hardly s brexit gain though, as they were here before.

https://news.sky.com/story/nissan-boss-says-brexit-is-positive-and-claims-new-trade-deal-gives-carmaker-a-competitive-advantage-12194667

"Brexit for Nissan is positive, and being the largest automaker in the UK, we will take this opportunity to redefine the industry here."
"Brexit gives us the competitive advantage, not only in the UK, but outside the UK also. Because in how many [manufacturing] locations in Europe are the batteries localised? Very few."
"We are also going to get an advantage with rules of origin. We are going to get an advantage from sourcing the cars which come to the UK - not only from Europe but mainly outside."


What does he mean... advantage over whom? Or over what other scenario?

Jonathan

Jdsk
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Jdsk » 22 Jan 2021, 8:38am

Oldjohnw wrote:But the reality keeps getting in the way.

And discussing it with others helps understanding... both of the reality and of what other people believe it to be.

Jonathan

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Paulatic
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Paulatic » 22 Jan 2021, 8:57am

Tangled Metal wrote:It seems to me that the whole Brexit situation has become about point scoring from either side and not about what could be done to make it work better. I'm not meaning on forums I mean in the wider community and especially political parties. Strange idea but perhaps it's better to foster a positive outlook and look to making the future better. Or we can circle the trucks and fight the same battles over and over again. Which is the better way?

Got no trucks to circle the fight ended when we were beaten. We said then we had difficulty in having a positive light on and we are still awaiting that little flicker of flame to stoke our positivity.
Until the Sunlight Uplands arrive i'm going to sit in this new dark age and keep biting my tongue. I’m totally out of ideas of how to make it work I’ll have to leave that to those that have had their vision granted. What they need to bear in mind is their choice has to keep more people happy than just themselves.
If you are a supporter of brexit you’ve dragged me onto a bus journey and now we are seated you want me to pay the fare and decide which stop we are getting off at. On yer bike ! :wink:
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

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francovendee
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby francovendee » 22 Jan 2021, 8:58am

I think the government's spin is working!
Over the last 3 days I've had conversations with 5 friends and family members. When discussing anything other than the pandemic, all problems at the ports and in NI are the fault of the EU, particularly the French.
It's been suggested to me the French should just let the trucks pass without the correct paperwork for a couple of months until the systems and knowledge of what paperwork is needed are in place.
Twice I was told it's not the UK's fault but the EU wanting to punishing the UK for leaving.
I guess thinking this way will gloss over any downsides from not being in the EU.

The British and the French have always had suspicion of each other. Not I add at a personal level but as Nations. I think one effect of Brexit has been to bring this to the surface.

Oldjohnw
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Oldjohnw » 22 Jan 2021, 9:26am

Thinking of Nissan, I am wondering how something staying the same as it was before is a great victory.

And something rather weird about hearing the NI Secretary claiming how great it is that the people of NI have all the benefits of the single market.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 22 Jan 2021, 9:53am, edited 1 time in total.
John

Pebble
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Re: When is remoaning not remoaning?!

Postby Pebble » 22 Jan 2021, 9:30am


Hardly an unbiased source ...

sadly for the next decade or more any UK business that falls on hard times or goes to the wall will be chalked up a a consequence of Brexit by those who did not want to leave. (there are over half a million business close every year with or without brexit)

Now that we have a reasonable deal I don't think there is too much to worry about, If it was not for the media hyping it up all the time I doubt many of us would notice any change. We are so fundamentally tied into the EU that our paths will hardly vary, may be a few tweaks here and there but there will be very little divergence. As I have always thought, brexit has to be the most pointless and stupid ideas ever, what an utter waste of money and time!