More better grammer and speeling please.

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markjohnobrien
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by markjohnobrien »

tatanab wrote: 15 Feb 2021, 3:43pm I agree that colloquial or regional terms (as in dialect) are fine in verbal conversation. In fact I love to hear regional accents and dialects.

But - if you are writing on a forum and wish to be understood, then understandable English is a requirement. A few people here drop in regional dialect terms that mean precisely nothing to me. Similarly, home made abbreviations. Of course this cannot apply to contributors for whom English is not their first language.

For some years I used to compile technical documents for an international readership. Would anything but plain and simple English have worked?
Agree: verbal communication is different to written and clear and intelligible English is the aim.
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661-Pete
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by 661-Pete »

markjohnobrien wrote: 4 Apr 2021, 11:06amGood job we’ve never met as I have a strong regional East Midlands accent (which I’m proud of )
Why should it be a "good job we've never met"? I thought I said in my post that:
661-Pete wrote: 15 Feb 2021, 3:28pm...One thing I've learned is that pulling someone else up on these matters is usually not a good idea. Especially when regional accents or dialects are involved. It's bound to cause upset.
Perhaps I should use bold and italic more often...

I will concede, however, that as I grow older and somewhat more hard-of-hearing, I occasionally find understanding people with strong accents difficult - especially on the phone (I've just bought myself an amplified landline phone, which should help. Hearing aids didn't). Deafness doesn't discriminate between the different social classes! :(
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
mikeymo
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by mikeymo »

markjohnobrien wrote: 4 Apr 2021, 11:10am
tatanab wrote: 15 Feb 2021, 3:43pm I agree that colloquial or regional terms (as in dialect) are fine in verbal conversation. In fact I love to hear regional accents and dialects.

But - if you are writing on a forum and wish to be understood, then understandable English is a requirement. A few people here drop in regional dialect terms that mean precisely nothing to me. Similarly, home made abbreviations. Of course this cannot apply to contributors for whom English is not their first language.

For some years I used to compile technical documents for an international readership. Would anything but plain and simple English have worked?
Agree: verbal communication is different to written and clear and intelligible English is the aim.
Yes, I prefer the people who communicate using pictures.
Jdsk
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by Jdsk »

; - )

Jonathan
PDQ Mobile
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Pictures!
I was fascinated, years ago, by an account of the homophone problem in Chinese.
Chinese has apparently "run out" of words.
It has quite a reduced phonetic alphabet.
So the language is full of homophones.
But importantly the written word is pictorial. Symbols.

The account was as follows:-
Two Chinese were having breakfast together. Reading the news from their respective newspapers.
One party decides an item is worth recounting to the other.

The problem is there's no context in a situation like this.
He is effectively reading "from scratch", it could be about almost anything.
Anyway, having got his interlocutors attention, off he goes reading, from his paper, the item he felt worthy of sharing.
He realizes when he gets to the first homophone that there is a potential confusion.

So he makes, in the air in front of him (presumably mirror image) the pictorial symbol for the word and hence the meaning he wishes to convey!
Which conveniently and cleverly resolves the ambiguity.
And important context is achieved.



.
Jdsk
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by Jdsk »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 4 Apr 2021, 8:38pmI was fascinated, years ago, by an account of the homophone problem in Chinese.
Chinese has apparently "run out" of words.
It has quite a reduced phonetic alphabet.
Chinese doesn't have a native alphabet.

Jonathan
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Whatever a "native" alphabet is?
Did I say native?
(I think it referred to Manadarin Chinese but don't quote me.)

But it has relatively few sounds.
If I remember correctly it has a reduced consonant inventory.
Which gives rise to lots of homophomes.

Actually I thought the little story might interest you particularly.
For it contains linguistic insights.
Jdsk
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by Jdsk »

I put the "native" in there to avoid someone confusing the issue by mentioning pinyin. (Native) Chinese has a script but not an alphabet.

Mandarin and common English have about the same number of consonant phonemes, often counted as 19 and 24 respectively.

That's not why there are so many homophones.

Jonathan
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Apr 2021, 9:00pm I put the "native" in there to avoid someone confusing the issue by mentioning pinyin. (Native) Chinese has a script but not an alphabet.

Mandarin and common English have about the same number of consonant phonemes, often counted as 19 and 24 respectively.

That's not why there are so many homophones.

Jonathan
But there are lots of homophones, yes?

And less consonants gives rise to less phonetic combinations surely?

The story is about how pictures or symbols have certain advantages over a phonetic alphabet.

How they can resolve certain issues.
It fascinated me when I read it.

Just lighthearted , and I thought someone might find it mildly interesting.

Must go and shut the chickens up.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 4 Apr 2021, 9:10pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jdsk
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by Jdsk »

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophone ... in_Chinese

eg "Homophonic puns in Standard Chinese"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophoni ... rd_Chinese

But as that says:

"However, modern Chinese words average about two syllables, so the high rate of syllable homophony does not cause a problem for communication."

Jonathan
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Apr 2021, 9:08pm Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophone ... in_Chinese

eg "Homophonic puns in Standard Chinese"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophoni ... rd_Chinese

But as that says:

"However, modern Chinese words average about two syllables, so the high rate of syllable homophony does not cause a problem for communication."

Jonathan
Wiki is no longer available to me.
I am a security risk apparently!

There is no doubt that context is very important in communication.

Really the story is about context or rather the lack of it.
Context is surprisingly important in verbal communication.
But the potential confusion arises through lots of homophones and lack of context.

That's what I read.
I understood it and it's significance immediately.

Because it is something we all experience from time to time.
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661-Pete
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by 661-Pete »

Chinese full of homophones? Indeed! This is a famous example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExjnn_3ep4
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
PDQ Mobile
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by PDQ Mobile »

661-Pete wrote: 4 Apr 2021, 10:35pm Chinese full of homophones? Indeed! This is a famous example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExjnn_3ep4
Blimey!
No wonder they stuck with pictorial symbols.
mikeymo
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Apr 2021, 8:30pm ; - )

Jonathan
Wooossshhh!!!

It seems.
Jdsk
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Re: More better grammer and speeling please.

Post by Jdsk »

Is that literally Wooossshhh!!! ?

Jonathan
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