I don't like living in England....

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Ben@Forest
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

661-Pete wrote: 8 May 2021, 9:12pm I don't expect a Green revolution in my lifetime, whatever may have transpired in Germany. Probably not soon enough to save the planet. :(
The German Green Party have run into a wall - or at least a petrol pump. From the DT:

The honeymoon appears to be over for Annalena Baerbock, the Green Party candidate to succeed Angela Merkel as chancellor of Germany in September. A new poll has the Greens in second place on 22 per cent, a full seven points behind Mrs Merkel’s Christian Democrats (CDU), who are on 29 per cent. The Green Wave that briefly carried the party to the top of the polls in the wake of Ms Baerbock’s nomination appears to be fading.

Just over a month ago, the roles were reversed: the Greens were in the lead with 30 per cent, ahead of the CDU on 24 per cent in the same poll by Civey for Spiegel magazine. But the Greens have been through tough weeks since then, amid unpopular policy announcements and admissions by Ms Baerbock she broke parliamentary rules on declaring income. Green plans to raise the price of petrol by 16 cents (14p) a litre have proved particularly damaging. The Greens want to reduce car use and a longstanding pledge to introduce a 130kmh (81mph) speed limit on the German motorways does not appear to have hurt them in the polls. But petrol prices have already risen steeply in recent months and the prospect of a further hike proved too much for many voters. A poll found 72 per cent of Germans were against the Greens’ proposed price rise, with just 24 per cent in favour.

The Greens have also been hit by a spat between Ms Baerbock and Robert Habeck, the man she narrowly beat to the party’s chancellor candidacy, over Ukraine. Mr Habeck recently called for Germany to end its current ban on arms sales to Ukraine and allow exports for “self-defence” against Russia. The proposal was a break with the Greens’ pacifist principles and Ms Baerbock swiftly slapped it down, but the damage was already done, and the Greens’ carefully cultivated image of unity is a thing of the past.....


As many contradictions as any other political party - and when we get 20, or 50 Green MPs here it'll be no different.
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661-Pete
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by 661-Pete »

Ben@Forest wrote: 3 Jun 2021, 8:33pm The German Green Party have run into a wall - or at least a petrol pump. From the DT:
Well done on finding that article - I presume it was behind the DT paywall!

The Conservative party doesn't seem to have suffered much from its semblance of disunity. Remember that up till 2016, it was split down the middle on the EU. So I would imagine the German Greens will weather this bit of unrest. As to the resistance against raising petrol prices - all I can say is, that's indicative of the 'me first' attitude of so many voters - whether in England or Germany. A hard act to counter. Who else remembers the fuel protests back in 2000? - which caused plenty of anxiety back then, and nearly brought the whole economy to a halt (ha ha! now largely forgotten). And in those days we didn't have EVs to fall back on....

I looked up German fuel prices: 1.29€ for both petrol and diesel. That's a lot cheaper than it is in the UK, and a hell of a lot cheaper than it was across the board two or three years ago. Why can't people stand a 16 cent rise?
Ben@Forest wrote: 3 Jun 2021, 8:33pmAs many contradictions as any other political party - and when we get 20, or 50 Green MPs here it'll be no different.
I can't confirm or deny that prognostication - I shan't live long enough to see it, I expect. But for the younger ones amongst us I'd say, wait and see. If it ever happens. But England is not Germany.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

661-Pete wrote: 3 Jun 2021, 8:56pm
Ben@Forest wrote: 3 Jun 2021, 8:33pm The German Green Party have run into a wall - or at least a petrol pump. From the DT:
Well done on finding that article - I presume it was behind the DT paywall!

The Conservative party doesn't seem to have suffered much from its semblance of disunity. Remember that up till 2016, it was split down the middle on the EU. So I would imagine the German Greens will weather this bit of unrest. As to the resistance against raising petrol prices - all I can say is, that's indicative of the 'me first' attitude of so many voters - whether in England or Germany. A hard act to counter. Who else remembers the fuel protests back in 2000? - which caused plenty of anxiety back then, and nearly brought the whole economy to a halt (ha ha! now largely forgotten). And in those days we didn't have EVs to fall back on....

I looked up German fuel prices: 1.29€ for both petrol and diesel. That's a lot cheaper than it is in the UK, and a hell of a lot cheaper than it was across the board two or three years ago. Why can't people stand a 16 cent rise?
I've no doubt they will - but my point is they aren't some fresh-faced kid on the block with no nasty skeletons in the cupboard. They've had nasty scandals like all other parties and the pacifist/non-pacifist stance always seems to cause friction. By the time the Greens here get to some position of influence (one could argue the Scottish Greens already are) they'll be the same. Though it has to be said that scandals associated with the SNP are like water off a duck's back.
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661-Pete
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Re: I don't like living in England....

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Ben@Forest wrote: 3 Jun 2021, 9:15pm I've no doubt they will - but my point is they aren't some fresh-faced kid on the block with no nasty skeletons in the cupboard. They've had nasty scandals like all other parties and the pacifist/non-pacifist stance always seems to cause friction. By the time the Greens here get to some position of influence (one could argue the Scottish Greens already are) they'll be the same. Though it has to be said that scandals associated with the SNP are like water off a duck's back.
I assume you're referring to my comment about the Greens in Germany 'weathering this bit of unrest'.

Talking of 'fresh-faced kids on the block': couldn't Trump have been described as one of those? AFAIK he had no political experience up until 2016. Though he certainly had plenty of 'skeletons'....

Anyway, I think it's wrong to imbue a political party with accusations of future potential scandals or rifts, for which there is no basis at the present time. As I said before, 'wait and see'.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
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Jdsk
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 17 May 2021, 11:04am Interesting views on local food above.

But it still has to be picked. For some reasons newspapers are reporting today on the expected shortage of labour.

This might have been triggered by the Select Committee's report:

"The UK’s new immigration policy and the food supply chain":
https://committees.parliament.uk/work/1 ... lications/

That page also links to the Government's response.
"Fruit farming on ‘brink of collapse’... "
https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/12/fruit-fa ... -14759484/

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Jdsk
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 30 May 2021, 9:25pm
Jdsk wrote: 17 May 2021, 11:15am And the NFU seem worried about small producers in the UK:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... s-bus.html

includes:

And it's clear that negotiators from Australia and New Zealand are sticking firm to their hardline demands for the complete removal of tariffs on all their exports to the UK.

This would make life unbearable for small British family farms, which, remember, must respect British laws governing high farm standards.
Not just the NFU:

Image

https://www.bestforbritain.org/britishfarmerspoll
Letter from the International Agreements Committee trying to discover what's being negotiated:
https://committees.parliament.uk/public ... 0/default/

Jonathan
Vorpal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 8:24am
"Fruit farming on ‘brink of collapse’... "
https://metro.co.uk/2021/06/12/fruit-fa ... -14759484/

Jonathan
I read something like that in an agriculture publication a couple of days ago.

They are struggling in Norway, as well, due to the almost closed borders, and the lack of migrant workers. They have had some partial successes in hiring teens & university students who cannot go abroad, or in some cases, cannot return home for the summer.
661-Pete wrote: 4 Jun 2021, 9:32am Anyway, I think it's wrong to imbue a political party with accusations of future potential scandals or rifts, for which there is no basis at the present time. As I said before, 'wait and see'.
I think that the Greens are an important part of modern politics. I have been voting for them for most of my adult life across multiple countries. But in first-past-the-post systems, their most important role is one of opposition. Although I would like to see them hold power in more places, and they have been effective in local politics, they play an important role in several countries in opposing harmful policies.
John Dalberg-Acton wrote:Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men..
The Green party politicians that I am personally acquainted with are universally decent people with their environments and communities foremost in their minds. They are basically trustworthy folks. But I also think that it is a minority of folks in this world who can succeed in politics without being corrupted by it, if only because the system is set up to corrupt, with long standing practices of favour exchanges, under-the-table deals, lobbying, and various ways for those in political power to gain wealth. Even parties who run on anti-corruption platforms with specific objectives, and win, have trouble not being corrupted, and so, so many of those objectives never get implemented. Globally, we have a problem with money in politics. It isn't as bad in the UK as some places, but it's far from the best. Without completely changing the political system, there are a few things that I think might help:
-stricter rules around lobbying & less dependence on funding
-complete ban on political donations over £1000
-a requirement for MPs and anyone with significant authority in government to hand over all financial assets to independent management
-a ban on MPs taking consulting roles, second jobs, or speaking engagements, with some specific exceptions (i.e. lecturing at a university for a nominal fee)
-establishment of an independent oversight body
-effective enforcement of the rules (e.g. exclusion & fines)

I also think that first-past-the-post is a system that lends itself more than many others to corruption. Although politics in general should be a system of cooperation, trade-offs, and compromises, when one party holds power, especially when one party holds power for an extended period, it prevents oversight & effective opposition. We have arrived at a situation where the fox is guarding the hen house, without gaining much for it.
Arend Lijphart wrote:majoritarian democracies do not outperform the consensus democracies on effective government and effective policy-making—in fact, the consensus democracies have the better record—but the consensus democracies do clearly outperform the majoritarian democracies with regard to the quality of democracy and democratic representation as well as with regard to what I have called the kindness and gentleness of their public policy orientations.*

Where the majoritarian model refers to a general type of democracy based upon the Westminster form of government, and the consensus
model tries to share, disperse, and restrain power in a variety of ways, such as coalitions, multiparty systems, proportional representation, strong bicameralism, judicial review, and the independence of significant institutions, such as the central bank.

*PATTERNS OF DEMOCRACY: Government Forms and Performance in Thirty-Six Countries
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Mike Sales
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Mike Sales »

Excellent post, Vorpal.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Tangled Metal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

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I don't know any green politicians or the details but where I used to live there was once a lot made of the greens being a problem in the council not a force for good. They held a balance of power role and used it for petty projects. I think that was less about green or environmental matters and more about getting their little projects through. In a way as corrupt and self interested as any party in the way they didn't represent their constituents but their own interests.

BTW they always got enough in to make a difference back then because there were a lot who would vote a green bin in if it had a green party rosette just like strong tory and Labour areas do for their lot.

Not sure what they're like now but I suspect they have waned in popularity.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

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Tangled Metal wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 1:14pm I don't know any green politicians or the details but where I used to live there was once a lot made of the greens being a problem in the council not a force for good. They held a balance of power role and used it for petty projects. I think that was less about green or environmental matters and more about getting their little projects through. In a way as corrupt and self interested as any party in the way they didn't represent their constituents but their own interests.
What is petty, though? The Greens in some areas are seen that way because the are small in number, and consequently focus their efforts where they can do the most good, which usually means individual projects. I have a friend who is a Green councillor on a mostly Conservative council, and the others are bitter because of his 'petty projects' which consist of things like recruiting volunteers for local speed watch, reducing speed limits in the villages of his constituency, and raising issues where contractors have removed hedges that they were contractually obligated to leave in place.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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661-Pete
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Re: I don't like living in England....

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Tangled Metal wrote: 15 Jun 2021, 1:14pm I don't know any green politicians or the details but where I used to live there was once a lot made of the greens being a problem in the council not a force for good. They held a balance of power role and used it for petty projects. I think that was less about green or environmental matters and more about getting their little projects through. In a way as corrupt and self interested as any party in the way they didn't represent their constituents but their own interests.

BTW they always got enough in to make a difference back then because there were a lot who would vote a green bin in if it had a green party rosette just like strong tory and Labour areas do for their lot.

Not sure what they're like now but I suspect they have waned in popularity.
Where was this, if I may ask?

Of course there's always going to be a constituent who isn't represented by Green policies. Like the petrolhead smug in his 4x4 'Discovery' who's worried about losing road space to cyclists and pedestrians. Like the factory-farmer worried about not being allowed to smother his crops and livestock in toxic agrichemicals. Like the oil magnate fearful of punitive taxation and falling business....

Plus of course, those ill-informed voters who unthinkingly favour the populist cause - however mendacious and harmful - especially if it's been championed in the Daily Fail. Yes I'm afraid such people do exist - as we saw in 2016.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
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mattsccm
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by mattsccm »

Not worrying about reading 60 pages but isn't the last post rather judgemental and biggoted?
pwa
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by pwa »

I know this thread is at least nominally about England, but (feeling a bit left out) I am going to mention the confused position of our Welsh Government on green matters. On the one side they give the go-ahead for wind farms, and they bin plans for a new motorway and make encouraging noises about more sustainable transport. But on the other hand they pump money into Cardiff Airport! Two faced or what! You can't be green and support air travel.

I do like living in Wales, and I do like much of what the Welsh Government does, but they need to overcome this split personality on environmental matters.
Tangled Metal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Tangled Metal »

mattsccm wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 9:30pm Not worrying about reading 60 pages but isn't the last post rather judgemental and biggoted?
I doubt the stereotypes listed aren't worried by green party at all. It'll take a lot for the UK population to change their opinions on the green party and vote for them.

Until that day I'll continue using public transport and my faithful Brompton to commute. I'll continue to shop local when that's possible. When not I'll use supermarket deliveries as in suspect it's more efficient to have one van doing a day's worth of deliveries than those same people hopping into their car to travel separately to and from the supermarket. I'll similarly but online only what I need with the similar way to our food shopping. I'll continue benefiting from my well insulated, energy efficient double glazing (previous owner bought it before triple glazing was in his price range) and solar power. Currently we're only drawing off the national Grid about 9pm, up till then it's standing charge only on our smart meter.

Of course I could just be an SUV driving oil magnate or ignorant and prejudiced Greenpeace type
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661-Pete
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by 661-Pete »

Strong language, heavy irony, and a bit of stereotyping (yes I'll admit to these) amount to bigotry? Well! - someone perhaps can explain what 'bigotry' means to them - but I thought the word more closely means 'intolerance'. Ah well..... this forum is replete with 'labels'.

Of course, disparaging the Green party and other Environmentally-aware campaign groups must be something different.... :?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
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