I don't like living in England....
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Re: I don't like living in England....
Anyone looked up the figures on visitors to Liverpool before listing and after listing. Isn't research your area of expertise JDSK. I'd have expected to see those figures and more on the significance of UNESCO listing by now. Must try harder!!!
Seriously though, Liverpool simply has so much going for it in terms of visitor attraction. I'm talking about the revived dock areas, Liverpool one, museums of which I think that they have the second best in the country in after British museum. Maritime museum, museum of Liverpool life. Art galleries, library is good too, cavern club and historical sites for the musical scene, theatres, orchestra, football clubs, etc. Liverpool has had a proud and less than proud history over the years. It's importance globally was once among the highest. Perhaps second only as a port city to London!
there's been immense wealth created and shared. Philanthropy is a part of the wealth of Liverpool over the years. You go around the world and Liverpool appears whether it's through the wearing of a Liverpool top or people in Thailand saying that's their team or mention of the Beatles. It's all about Liverpool and what it's contributed.
As to the heritage. The former UNESCO listed site was not about true architectural heritage like the Taj Mahal but as much about economic heritage? Every building in that area is mercantile in nature or origin. It's business heritage and IMHO the modern game of football is business above sport. I reckon that stadium fits right into the business heritage of the former UNESCO listed site. As does all the other developments.
My question is what is worthy of UNESCO listing? Is it beauty only or is there something deeper with this heritage industry of which UNESCO is part of? Can the modern be worth saving? Perhaps they should stipulate a minimum age for UNESCO listing like 100 years old before it becomes an antique??? Perhaps the tourist tat sellers around the great pyramid should cause delisting? Same with the great wall of China??
Seriously though, Liverpool simply has so much going for it in terms of visitor attraction. I'm talking about the revived dock areas, Liverpool one, museums of which I think that they have the second best in the country in after British museum. Maritime museum, museum of Liverpool life. Art galleries, library is good too, cavern club and historical sites for the musical scene, theatres, orchestra, football clubs, etc. Liverpool has had a proud and less than proud history over the years. It's importance globally was once among the highest. Perhaps second only as a port city to London!
there's been immense wealth created and shared. Philanthropy is a part of the wealth of Liverpool over the years. You go around the world and Liverpool appears whether it's through the wearing of a Liverpool top or people in Thailand saying that's their team or mention of the Beatles. It's all about Liverpool and what it's contributed.
As to the heritage. The former UNESCO listed site was not about true architectural heritage like the Taj Mahal but as much about economic heritage? Every building in that area is mercantile in nature or origin. It's business heritage and IMHO the modern game of football is business above sport. I reckon that stadium fits right into the business heritage of the former UNESCO listed site. As does all the other developments.
My question is what is worthy of UNESCO listing? Is it beauty only or is there something deeper with this heritage industry of which UNESCO is part of? Can the modern be worth saving? Perhaps they should stipulate a minimum age for UNESCO listing like 100 years old before it becomes an antique??? Perhaps the tourist tat sellers around the great pyramid should cause delisting? Same with the great wall of China??
Re: I don't like living in England....
I agree with you. I lived in Abercynon for 5 years, where is the accolade for that place of huge significance? They are different things. The ruins in Egypt are staggering and sometimes very beautiful. The Taj Mahals sheer beauty affected me greatly. Unesco need a different system, one that takes in these different categories. Liverpool shouldnt fret too much IMHO.
Al
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: I don't like living in England....
Ironbridge is listed.pwa wrote: ↑24 Jul 2021, 1:10pmWhat makes a site worthy of being a World Heritage Site, in your view? Is it just an impressive structure with a bit of age, or does it also involve a significant role in World history? When you get right down to it, the Taj Mahal is just an ostentatious bit of bling that had no significance for the rest of the world, except as a subject for postcards. The same applies to the pyramids of Egypt. Impressive, yes, but without real significance to the rest of the world. But the little known site in Shropshire where coke was first used successfully to make good iron is arguably where the Industrial Revolution took off, and that changed everything. I'd sooner see sites that really matter to world history, rather than sites that just have an impressive structure.
https://whc.unesco.org/en/statesparties/gb
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 24 Jul 2021, 1:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
John
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Re: I don't like living in England....
Around the same time you posted the original mail about this it also came up on a WhatsApp group I'm on. The person with the 'they knew what they were doing' opinion is a Liverpool tour guide and knows a wealth about the city. I don't know how she came to her opinion, but l trust it.Jdsk wrote: ↑24 Jul 2021, 12:01pmI've found it hard to find any detail on that. Despite my emotional attachment to and interest in Liverpool I didn't see this coming, and I wonder how much was caused by poor communications. The local government was in a serious mess throughout that period and that might explain some of it.Ben@Forest wrote: ↑22 Jul 2021, 8:56am It seems though that Liverpool had ample warning about what developments might affect the designation though - so authorities knew what they were doing.
Re: I don't like living in England....
Exactly. Facts, huh?Oldjohnw wrote: ↑24 Jul 2021, 1:38pm It is incredibly easy to find out the criteria for listing.
https://whc.unesco.org/en/criteria/
Jonathan
Re: I don't like living in England....
But speculation then knocking down straw men is much more fun.Jdsk wrote: ↑24 Jul 2021, 1:43pmExactly. Facts, huh?Oldjohnw wrote: ↑24 Jul 2021, 1:38pm It is incredibly easy to find out the criteria for listing.
https://whc.unesco.org/en/criteria/
Jonathan
John
Re: I don't like living in England....
Debatable, knocking down England seems to be frequently much for fun for some...and the Groniad
Al
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Re: I don't like living in England....
It is those who criticised the status quo who are responsible for the UK being a good place to live.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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- Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am
Re: I don't like living in England....
Hi Di Bach, Al, My wife's uncle Trevor came from and lived in Abercynon! Her Da was from Mountain Ash. Dew t was hard! Bloody steep as well. IGICB MM
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Re: I don't like living in England....
Nice list of criteria but you could argue that several of them still apply to the formerly UNESCO listed part of Liverpool. So my question is what is the methodology used for determining whether criteria apply. The dry criteria has obviously had interpretation over the years. Is there anything official about that? Is there any data, evidence or feedback on that? Any minutes from meetings? Any expert reports used for decisions? I guess nothing.
Without understanding the decision we're all guessing. Whether or guess is that it's justified or not it's still a guess mixed with opinion. My opinion is the decision isn't right. IMHO if the significant proportion of the site exists was at the time of listing then it should remain listed. If you remember the Buddha in Afghanistan, if that was listed then after the Taliban destroyed out it should have been delisted for example. If it significantly survived then not. IIRC the Daesh destroyed a significant site in Syria, not listed but if it had then listing lost. Liverpool has not been changed significantly. The v future developments do not detract from the listed area because they're not blocking out significantly altering the listed area which extends a good walk away from the front of the area. It's character is still of the mercantile origins and the beauty is still there for all to see.
I'm biased, I've still got a photograph taken of one of the graces, the liver building, all lit up taken by my dad a few years before UNESCO listing. He could go back to the same spot and take the exact same photograph now, after the UNESCO decision. That photo was in my dining room wall until I moved house. That and my degree certificate from the original red brick university are with my memories and family history part of my connection with the place.
Without understanding the decision we're all guessing. Whether or guess is that it's justified or not it's still a guess mixed with opinion. My opinion is the decision isn't right. IMHO if the significant proportion of the site exists was at the time of listing then it should remain listed. If you remember the Buddha in Afghanistan, if that was listed then after the Taliban destroyed out it should have been delisted for example. If it significantly survived then not. IIRC the Daesh destroyed a significant site in Syria, not listed but if it had then listing lost. Liverpool has not been changed significantly. The v future developments do not detract from the listed area because they're not blocking out significantly altering the listed area which extends a good walk away from the front of the area. It's character is still of the mercantile origins and the beauty is still there for all to see.
I'm biased, I've still got a photograph taken of one of the graces, the liver building, all lit up taken by my dad a few years before UNESCO listing. He could go back to the same spot and take the exact same photograph now, after the UNESCO decision. That photo was in my dining room wall until I moved house. That and my degree certificate from the original red brick university are with my memories and family history part of my connection with the place.
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Re: I don't like living in England....
The Manchester Guardian was founded in response to the Peterloo Massacre.
This was an attack by soldiers on a peaceful crowd asking for universal male suffrage.
Reactionaries then no doubt attacked the paper and perhaps accused it of doing so "for fun".
At the moment The Guardian is pointing out that the present Government's actions are insufficient to meet the challenging targets it has set.on CO2 emissions. Johnson's own advisors have said as much.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Re: I don't like living in England....
Part of the criteria in the original listing was that no development was to be approved that was taller than that existing. So effectively the skyline was what UNESCO considered significant heritage. There was a formal agreement some years after the listing, determining what would put it at risk, so as someone already mentioned the planning authority will have known they were risking it.Tangled Metal wrote: ↑24 Jul 2021, 4:52pm Nice list of criteria but you could argue that several of them still apply to the formerly UNESCO listed part of Liverpool.
The museum on the waterfront (I haven't been inside yet) is an absolute gem, you can't help but be drawn to it and the area around it seems to be a popular gathering place. I don't know what UNESCO think of it, i don't think it adds or detracts from the heritage but IMO it greatly enhances the area.
Re: I don't like living in England....
I like some aspects of the Groaniad (the leftie teechers paper) but its continual bellyaching, lack of balance and negativity are the things that make it less than perfect. Brexit has brought out the worst in it.
Al
Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Re: I don't like living in England....
What is the positive message about climate change that your chosen newsource gives you?
Why can you not resist a silly gibe?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?