I don't like living in England....

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Oldjohnw
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

markjohnobrien wrote: 7 May 2021, 8:04pm
Oldjohnw wrote: 7 May 2021, 7:41pm There is no doubt at all that Johnson is good at elections. But regardless of which party is in power a country is better with an opposition which actually works.
Of course, that’s a given: Labour, however, are abysmal as an opposition and have lost their working class heartlands as they don’t speak for them anymore, have nothing in common, and are seen as a party for students, the middle class, and metropolitan socialists in big cities.
It isn’t a given. There are plenty who want an ever greater one party majority and love the idea that the opposition is pretty dysfunctional and had been for at least five years. If Labour really were a party for students, the middle class and whatever metropolitan socialists are they would have a reasonable majority!

But I do k ow what you mean.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 8 May 2021, 7:46am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

R4 Today programme interviewed a Northern Echo correspondent today. He was obviously being asked why the north has stopped voting Labour.

His take was that here (in the north-east) the Conservatives aren't trying to play a 'left vs right' game but simply a 'do what works' approach. I'm sure plenty (here) will say that 'it isn't working' but Labour trying to frame it in the terms of old tribal loyalties isn't working either.
markjohnobrien
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by markjohnobrien »

Analysis from Labour Shadow front bencher Khalid Mahmood (just resigned):

'Labour has lost touch with ordinary people'

More on the resignation of shadow defence minister Khalid Mahmood from Labour's front bench amid the loss to the Conservatives in the Hartlepool by-election.

He claims over the past decade, Labour has "lost touch with ordinary people" and a "London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party".

Mr Mahmood added: "They mean well, of course, but their politics - obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism - have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday."

He also claimed the loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused "more on pulling down Churchill’s statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world".

Mr Mahmood went on: "No wonder it is doing better among rich urban liberals and young university graduates than it is amongst the most important part of its traditional electoral coalition, the working-class."

He continued: "A bit of superficial flag-waving – reinforced by urgent memos from party HQ – isn't going to fix that. We have to recognise that the patriotism of these voters runs much deeper than that.

"They are more alert to rebranding exercises than spin doctors give them credit for. Their patriotism is about historic pride in their places, the heritage and stories of those places, and the Britishness and Englishness of the people and families that call them home."
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Paulatic
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Paulatic »

Tangled Metal wrote: 7 May 2021, 7:09pm Obviously not many will agree with me here.
Unusual for me I do. :lol:
Apart from
Tangled Metal wrote: 7 May 2021, 7:09pm I also think Kier Starmer could still be ok as leader of opposition but he needs to end the influence of the likes of big Len I reckon.
Kier can’t get away from the fact he is a London lawyer and has IMHO been a disappointment. Labour looks to be having great success in Wales and Drakeford ( Momentum-backed hard leftie) has upped his share of vote by 13%.
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Ride-sleep-repeat
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

Tangled Metal wrote: 7 May 2021, 7:09pm I also think Kier Starmer could still be ok as leader of opposition but he needs to end the influence of the likes of big Len I reckon.
Why do you think there’s been no smear campaign against him?He's not a threat that's why.
If Labour want to continue losing ground to the Tories then he's the perfect man for the job.He was,is and always will be the wrong choice for leader.His latest defeats are quite frankly an embarrassment.He should resign now and let the party try to build a credible opposition.
He's put Labour back years.They are basically unelectable.If this continues there's a good possibility the Lib Dems will become the opposition and we'll have another decade of Tory chaos,poverty,lies and corruption.
francovendee
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by francovendee »

I had hopes when Starmer became leader that it would make the labour party more popular and electable.
It hasn't so is it him or his policies that people don't find appealing?
Oldjohnw
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

Starmer is brilliant at doing what he is trained for: forensically taking Johnson apart.

But I have absolutely no idea what Labour’s policies are from Europe to Education or from healthcare to defence, or transport to energy.
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al_yrpal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by al_yrpal »

My view....

The biggest weapon in a leaders armoury is charisma.

Harold Wilson had it
Blair had it
Boris has it

Starmer has the charisma of a fencepost. Labour needs a game changer to win, and he isnt it. His inner circle is populated by a generous sprinkling of Corbyns hard left ladies which the public are aware of. Nothing much has changed. He is dead in the water. Reminds me of Kinnock.

The reward is an ever more hard right government with Priti Patel leading the charge.

Its a pity because there are some reasonable and able people in the Labour party whose ideas are being lost.

Al
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Jdsk
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

francovendee wrote: 8 May 2021, 8:27am I had hopes when Starmer became leader that it would make the labour party more popular and electable.
It hasn't so is it him or his policies that people don't find appealing?
Oldjohnw wrote: 8 May 2021, 8:34am But I have absolutely no idea what Labour’s policies are from Europe to Education or from healthcare to defence, or transport to energy.
I'll assume that you both really mean policies. And especially not values, personalities or politicians' behaviour.

1 For a long time Labour's policies have been a lot more popular than electoral results would suggest. That's easy to demonstrate with careful wording in surveys that removes obvious party connections. But policies play a very indirect part in our democratic processes.

2 Immigration might be an exception to this, but you have to be very careful with the data because of the high rates of change of opinion.

3 There haven't been major changes in Labour's policies, except on the EU following the referendum.

4 Johnson's policies are quite different from those of previous Conservative administrations. The most obvious is the new willingness to advocate public expenditure rather than "austerity". (This will end up with discussing the pork barrel issue, but it's still money.) And on the EU (excluding the May interlude.)

The "left-right" axis alone is totally inadequate to explain what's happening. The Conservatives' policies have changed suddenly as above. We also need "socially conservative - liberal" and "authoritarian - liberal", which of course are predominantly about values and the culture war rather than about policies.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 8 May 2021, 9:28am, edited 1 time in total.
Ben@Forest
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

Oldjohnw wrote: 8 May 2021, 8:34am But I have absolutely no idea what Labour’s policies are from Europe to Education or from healthcare to defence, or transport to energy.
His whole tenure has been dominated by Covid and it's a nightmare political position for an opposition. It needs to be seen to be working 'together', it can't slate the government for fear of making the population feel 'worse' and there are many actions being taken, probably most, which they agree with. And it's difficult to interest people in other political news.

I can't believe how anonymous his team has been though - l put a who's this picture question on a Zoom quiz last year. One person got it right - it was Anneliese Dodds (and to make it easier you could see she was wearing a Labour rosette). One person!
Jdsk
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Ben@Forest wrote: 8 May 2021, 9:21amHis whole tenure has been dominated by Covid and it's a nightmare political position for an opposition. It needs to be seen to be working 'together', it can't slate the government for fear of making the population feel 'worse' and there are many actions being taken, probably most, which they agree with. And it's difficult to interest people in other political news.
Agreed. And on that particular issue I think that he's behaved correctly. (See Attlee!)

This changes with the dominant effects of the outbreak shifting to the economics.

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by al_yrpal »

Oldjohnw wrote: 8 May 2021, 8:34am Starmer is brilliant at doing what he is trained for: forensically taking Johnson apart.
The public know exactly what Boris is and they evidently collectively dont care. Fear of the looney left in charge figures large.

Starmer would be a good front bencher charged with disassembling Boris and the Tories. He is not a leader natural Labour followers would follow.

Al
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thirdcrank
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by thirdcrank »

The voting public very obviously don't care about Boris Johnson's character at the moment. It seems to me a bit like the equivalent of a Ponzi investment scam, where big returns to early investors attract more investment to pay the big returns so attracting more investors. So far, at the national level, Boris Johnson has delivered Brexit (ie broke the impasse in Parliament with a General Election) and saved us from Covid (ie made a total hash of it but fell on his feet with vaccines.)
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Ride-sleep-repeat
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

al_yrpal wrote: 8 May 2021, 8:50am Blair had it
Boris has it
Blair was just a smarmy......
Boris is good a convincing the public that he's a bit of a buffoon.He isn't.The trouble is by using enough 'key' phrases and with the help of the media too many people have fallen into the trap.That's not charisma.
markjohnobrien
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by markjohnobrien »

Ride-sleep-repeat wrote: 8 May 2021, 9:53am
al_yrpal wrote: 8 May 2021, 8:50am Blair had it
Boris has it
Blair was just a smarmy......
Boris is good a convincing the public that he's a bit of a buffoon.He isn't.The trouble is by using enough 'key' phrases and with the help of the media too many people have fallen into the trap.That's not charisma.
For all of his myriad personal faults and flaws, and by god he has plenty, Boris has charisma in spades and is a winner.

He showed it by:

Repeatedly being London Mayor in a natural Labour city - against massive odds.

Key part of Brexit referendum win

Winning the 2019 election

Further destruction of the Labour Red Wall

Starmer has the charisma of a beer mat says a Hartlepool voter:

‘There’s beer mats with more personality than Starmer’: Hartlepool reacts to Tory win

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b623 ... 0538b24e46

I’d also defend Blair: he had certainty, drive, and charisma as well: also a winner. One of a rare breed in Labour political history.
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