I don't like living in England....

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Ride-sleep-repeat
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

markjohnobrien wrote: 8 May 2021, 10:22am
Ride-sleep-repeat wrote: 8 May 2021, 9:53am
al_yrpal wrote: 8 May 2021, 8:50am Blair had it
Boris has it
Blair was just a smarmy......
Boris is good a convincing the public that he's a bit of a buffoon.He isn't.The trouble is by using enough 'key' phrases and with the help of the media too many people have fallen into the trap.That's not charisma.
For all of his myriad personal faults and flaws, and by god he has plenty, Boris has charisma in spades and is a winner.
He showed it by:
Repeatedly being London Mayor in a natural Labour city - against massive odds.
Key part of Brexit referendum win
Winning the 2019 election
Further destruction of the Labour Red Wall
Starmer has the charisma of a beer mat says a Hartlepool voter:
‘There’s beer mats with more personality than Starmer’: Hartlepool reacts to Tory win
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b623 ... 0538b24e46
I’d also defend Blair: he had certainty, drive, and charisma as well: also a winner. One of a rare breed in Labour political history.
Boris is a conman.A very good conman.No charisma needed.
As I said Blair was just a smarmy......easy to mistake for charisma.Both he a Starmer have one thing in common.They're both closer to Tories than they are Labour.The public bought it in 1997 but aren't doing so now.
In this modern social media led world it seems that it's easier to con people....you've only got to look to the USA for more proof of that.
atoz
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by atoz »

The job of a political opposition is to oppose. If they are seeming to agree with the government, why vote for them?

As for blaming Corbyn, he hasn't actually been leader for around 17 months. That won't fly.

When you get people as dissimilar as Adonis and Owen Jones agreeing that Starmer needs to consider his position you know things are bad. Based on that it may be a case of not if but when. And when that happens, goodbye and good riddance.

I used to be a Labour voter. Not any more.
thirdcrank
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by thirdcrank »

It's not the Opposition's role to oppose everything willy-nilly.
markjohnobrien
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by markjohnobrien »

atoz wrote: 8 May 2021, 10:39am The job of a political opposition is to oppose. If they are seeming to agree with the government, why vote for them?

As for blaming Corbyn, he hasn't actually been leader for around 17 months. That won't fly.

When you get people as dissimilar as Adonis and Owen Jones agreeing that Starmer needs to consider his position you know things are bad. Based on that it may be a case of not if but when. And when that happens, goodbye and good riddance.

I used to be a Labour voter. Not any more.
Is that because you want Labour to move more to the left or, conversely, move towards a more Blairite position as these are the current debates splitting the Labour Party asunder.
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DaveReading
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by DaveReading »

Ride-sleep-repeat wrote: 8 May 2021, 10:36amAs I said Blair was just a smarmy...... easy to mistake for charisma. Both he and Starmer have one thing in common. They're both closer to Tories than they are Labour.
People voted Conservative because Labour wasn't left-wing enough ?
Oldjohnw
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

Charisma in my view is overrated. I prefer substance and character. With Johnson charisma is almost synonymous with being completely lacking in integrity.
John
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Ride-sleep-repeat
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

DaveReading wrote: 8 May 2021, 11:02am
Ride-sleep-repeat wrote: 8 May 2021, 10:36amAs I said Blair was just a smarmy...... easy to mistake for charisma. Both he and Starmer have one thing in common. They're both closer to Tories than they are Labour.
People voted Conservative because Labour wasn't left-wing enough ?
As daft as that sounds,yes probably.
I can tell you why the Labour voters I know recently voted Conservative.They fell into two categories:-
1.Those who believed Boris would get Brexit done.
2.Those that believed the smear campaign against Corbyn who wouldn't vote for a Terrorist sympathiser and who now know Starmer has no chance so they 'might as well not waste their vote and vote for Boris'.
Yes some people really are that easy to manipulate.The last few years have left me questioning if I really know some of my friends and family!
It's a funny old game.
Psamathe
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote: 8 May 2021, 9:26am
Ben@Forest wrote: 8 May 2021, 9:21amHis whole tenure has been dominated by Covid and it's a nightmare political position for an opposition. It needs to be seen to be working 'together', it can't slate the government for fear of making the population feel 'worse' and there are many actions being taken, probably most, which they agree with. And it's difficult to interest people in other political news.
Agreed. And on that particular issue I think that he's behaved correctly. (See Attlee!)

This changes with the dominant effects of the outbreak shifting to the economics.

Jonathan
I also agree. Starmer has taken the responsible approach though this has meant he's not had the opportunity to gain any public profile. I believe if people look at where Starmer has been critical of the Government, calling for earlier lockdowns, stricter faster border controls, etc, then a lot fewer people would have been holding funerals and a lot few suffering debilitating long term illness. But that takes people looking at what's happening rather than just having a giggle at a "lovable rogue" (who is responsible for horrendous number of unnecessary deaths).

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Psamathe »

I'm always very sceptical of the analysis by party members within hours of an electoral defeat. Often probably just personal opinion and bias (e.g. Dianne Abbot's "this demonstrates the need to return to Corbynism" cries) or at best the result of a few door visits.

I suspect by next General Election we will be in a very different place. Hopefully life will have returned closer to normal and Starmer will have had plenty of opportunity to highlight the flaws in Johnson (not hard - something even my pet rabbit does every day). If we are lucky and Johnson caves we will maybe have seen the early days of an inquiry into pandemic handling but also the electorate will be having to start paying for the Gov's borrowing, job losses, etc.

I also think that Brexit is not yet over and the Labour candidate for Hartlepool was in that respect a particularly bad choice.

So I don't regard the Hartlepool result as particularly significant.

Ian
Jdsk
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

More on the resignation of shadow defence minister Khalid Mahmood from Labour's front bench amid the loss to the Conservatives in the Hartlepool by-election.
Mahmoud left the Labour front bench on 13 April 2021.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 8 May 2021, 11:33amI also think that Brexit is not yet over and the Labour candidate for Hartlepool was in that respect a particularly bad choice.

So I don't regard the Hartlepool result as particularly significant.
Psephologists are currently describing "the Brexit unwind" and "incumbency advantage".

Explanations of the short term changes in Hartlepool needs to take into account the rise and fall of UKIP and the Brexit Party. And turnout. In our system raw counts and percentage changes in the vote can be very misleading indicators of how individuals voted differently from how they have in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartlepoo ... stituency)

But the medium-term changes look highly significant to me.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 8 May 2021, 12:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ride-sleep-repeat
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

Sheffields Labour councillor lost his seat to the Green Party.Absolutely bizarre.
Mike Sales
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Mike Sales »

Ride-sleep-repeat wrote: 8 May 2021, 12:20pm Sheffields Labour councillor lost his seat to the Green Party.Absolutely bizarre.
Thirty two Green councillors were elected in England, an increase of nineteen.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Oldjohnw
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

Ride-sleep-repeat wrote: 8 May 2021, 12:20pm Sheffields Labour councillor lost his seat to the Green Party.Absolutely bizarre.
What is bizarre about that? It seems to me that quietly and slowly green issues are becoming more relevant to people. Northumberland has gained its first two Green councillors.
John
Jdsk
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 8 May 2021, 12:24pm
Ride-sleep-repeat wrote: 8 May 2021, 12:20pm Sheffields Labour councillor lost his seat to the Green Party.Absolutely bizarre.
Thirty two Green councillors were elected in England, an increase of nineteen.
Why bizarre?

Labour might have become less popular among pro-EU environmentally concerned social democrats as well as other groups. And there are lots of local issues where a local Green vote could be very important. Including in Oxfordshire where I live... results due on Sunday.

Jonathan

Edited: Crossed post. SNAP!
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