I don't like living in England....

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
So without taking sides.
What's the way forward for old labour?

[661-Pete]

So without taking sides.
What's the way forward for old labour?

Whisper who dares, but I don't see any 'way forward' for Labour - 'new' or 'old' - in my lifetime. Maybe in a generation or two? The latest notch advanced in their self-destruct mechanism, which has been clicking regularly for years: this item popped up only today. Much as I detest the egregious Priti, I detest her for her policies and political stance; not for her name, religion or the colour of her skin.

At least the perpetrator of the offending tweet has apologised, which does him some credit. But far better not to have delivered the racist insult in the first place.

What about Unite's relationship with Labour, seeing as they are the biggest funder? What about McCluskey, who seems to be able to dictate Labour policy without being answerable to anyone? Yes I know all about "he who pays the piper calls the tune". Trouble is, a piper is only there to provide entertainment and ceremony (or in a few cases drive out rats and sprogs). The Labour party is supposed to be providing much more than that - an alternative government.

Would it be better if taxpayers, and only taxpayers, funded all political parties? Could a fair system be devised?

I've said this before, and I admit to being biased in this matter - the 'way forward' as I see it, has to be with the Greens.

[Mike Sales]

Whisper who dares, but I don't see any 'way forward' for Labour - 'new' or 'old' - in my lifetime. Maybe in a generation or two? The latest notch advanced in their self-destruct mechanism, which has been clicking regularly for years: this item popped up only today. Much as I detest the egregious Priti, I detest her for her policies and political stance; not for her name, religion or the colour of her skin.

At least the perpetrator of the offending tweet has apologised, which does him some credit. But far better not to have delivered the racist insult in the first place.

It is interesting to speculate about why Tory Islamophobia has received so much less prominence in our media than Labour antisemitism.
Especially since some of the allegations come from prominent Tories.

Allegations of Islamophobia in the UK Conservative Party have been made in the 21st century. Allegations have been made against senior politicians, including Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Zac Goldsmith.

Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, former co-chair of the Conservative Party, said in 2018 that anti-Muslim prejudice had "poisoned" the party. Warsi called on party leader Theresa May to condemn it, arguing that she had spent over two years trying but failing to get successive party leaders to address the problem of Islamophobia.[1] Some Muslim party members welcomed Warsi's comments, saying that they felt the issue had been marginalised within the party.[1]

In 2018, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) issued numerous calls for an independent inquiry into Islamophobia in the party. These calls have been backed by Baroness Warsi, Baron Mohamed Sheikh and Mohammed Amin of the Conservative Muslim Forum, 350 mosques and 11 umbrella organisations across the United Kingdom, and former Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamopho ... 93present)

An inquiry sounds like a good idea.

[Stevek76]

Commit unambiguously to voting reform. Do that and they can probably bring in enough votes to at least operate as minority/coalition government.

Then implement such reform, then fracture into two parties that can both be content with their offerings to the public rather than constantly infighting.

Conservatives are better at sticking together for the larger goal of retaining power but once the incentive to do that has gone they will likely change as well.

[Tangled Metal]

Forgive me but what is the phrase where you defend your side by talking about the other side's bad behaviour! It's it whataboutery, deflection, or other?

We were having a discussion about what Labour has to do to become electable and part of that discussion needs to be critical of what Labour are doing wrong. If you can't discuss that openly without trying to turn it up into a your side is worse than my side then perhaps that needs discussion too. Are socialists and active Labour supporters as much of the problem as the executive, leadership and key media figures? The way they diffuse and deflect because they cannot look at the root causes perhaps?

We are experiencing a period of time with the worst Tory government I've ever known yet the party of opposition are having the worst period of electoral results since what the 1930s?? Just when we need the opposition to step up and hold the government to account we get the current Labour party. It is scary his poor the Tories are yet they're considered a better option by enough of the electorate to make it a walk in for the Tories where they should never have a chance of success.

We need Labour that can win. Stuff ideology when it's giving us Boris!!! Time to end Union power? Change the way Labour party operate perhaps? What is creating this Labour party? Why haven't they changed when it stopped working? Are they still trying to fight yesterday's battles? Theyn simply need to turn up to the fight somehow.

Was it Lisa nandy on QT last night? She was showing the exact behaviour I think is part of the problem. A zoom audience member really went to town on the politicians especially Labour and the independent but Labour supporting journo panelist. She went slightly subdued after that I thought.

[Psamathe]

....
We were having a discussion about what Labour has to do to become electable and part of that discussion needs to be critical of what Labour are doing wrong. If you can't discuss that openly without trying to turn it up into a your side is worse than my side then perhaps that needs discussion too. Are socialists and active Labour supporters as much of the problem as the executive, leadership and key media figures? The way they diffuse and deflect because they cannot look at the root causes perhaps?....

Maybe the underlying problem Labour face is the wide range of ideologies across the party and that those holding those ideologies love to get press/air-time to argue their particular stance. I think the Conservatives have a comparable (maybe broader) range of ideologies but the nature of those individuals is to keep quiet when that improves their personal prospects. So maybe it's about the appearance of unity than the reality of unity (just look at some of the Conservative "... Research Groups").

Personally I'm very happy with a party holding a broad range of view and dislike the "vote how my party leader says". Debate and discuss and compromise might give the appearance of uncertainty but normally results in a better solution (isn't that what Parliamentary debate is meant to be all about).

But party leaders determining everything in a dictatorial manner (in whatever party) seems popular with the electorate or maybe it's popular with the press?

Ian

[markjohnobrien]

Yes, that's the lady. Poor choice and I hope the BBC doesn't keep her on it as long.

Yes, she’s not a patch on previous incumbents.

[Stevek76]

The press is certainly less ruthless with the conservatives, whether it's overt discrimination or unintended foot in it moments (which, reading the link above and not knowing his personal history, Beckett's remarks could easily be the latter. There were sporadic calls for May to be deported when she was Home secretary...)

However that's something Labour really needs to just accept it has to deal with, attack conservatives where it can, deal with its own missteps swiftly.

As for policy, beyond PR (to reign in the green/ld votes) they need to focus on the bread and butter stuff that actually matters to the vast majority politically disinterested people.

I'm not convinced those people care much at all about culture wars and statues and I think starmer is falling into a trap by engaging with it. Every time it's brought up they need to focus on dismissing it as a distraction from the things the government is failing at (and there's not a shortage of creaking public services to go after). Instead if he tries to make Labour 'less woke' (whatever that actually is) he both fails to attract the floating 'centre' voter, who really just wants to not hear about such things, and he alienates parts of his own party causing internal arguments, damaging 'get the vote out' resources and losing politically interested voters to green/of.

Trying to relink the government to the past in voters minds may also prove fruitful. The conservatives under Johnson have fairly successfully managed to get seen as a 'new' government with all the voting intention bonus that provides.

[Ben@Forest]

Commit unambiguously to voting reform. Do that and they can probably bring in enough votes to at least operate as minority/coalition government.

Then implement such reform, then fracture into two parties that can both be content with their offerings to the public rather than constantly infighting.

Conservatives are better at sticking together for the larger goal of retaining power but once the incentive to do that has gone they will likely change as well.

I agree that Labour would probably split into two if the Westminster parliament went PR. But I'm not so sure the Conservatives would - the major faultline which divided them from the 1990s onward has been resolved - we're out of Europe and the Conservatives are from now on and for a generation an 'out-of-Europe' party.

Of course if we'd had PR prior to this UKIP could have been the 'out-of-Europe' party and there may have been no reason for the Conservatives to split either.

[al_yrpal]

Personally I dont think there is a way forward for Old Labour. Mcluskey is a fossil, the extreme left wing is a fossil too, Keir is a nonentity. I think we are seeing the last of Labour weilding any power at all. Decades out of power is my prediction. I have no idea what will replace it. We all know Boris is largely incompetent but tolerated and there is nothing credible from Labour to replace him.

Al

[Stevek76]

But I'm not so sure the Conservatives would - the major faultline which divided them from the 1990s onward has been resolved - we're out of Europe and the Conservatives are from now on and for a generation an 'out-of-Europe' party.

Yes, that's why I used change rather than split. The bulk will stay but I'd not be surprised if some of the more globalist liberal (socially and economically) 'conservatives' left and set up something new instead rather than defect to lib Dems. there's still significant ideological spread, it just no longer has the EU focal point.

[Mike Sales]

We were having a discussion about what Labour has to do to become electable and part of that discussion needs to be critical of what Labour are doing wrong. If you can't discuss that openly without trying to turn it up into a your side is worse than my side then perhaps that needs discussion too. Are socialists and active Labour supporters as much of the problem as the executive, leadership and key media figures? The way they diffuse and deflect because they cannot look at the root causes perhaps?

I have seen people reprimanded for wandering away from the thread title,but never before for wandering away from a topic which is itself a diversion from the original topic!
If what you dislike about England is the sorry state of the Labour Party, may I not mention a serious problem with the Tories, and the media neglect of reporting it, which is certainly something I dislike about the sorry state of the British media, as well as of the Tories.

[ClappedOut]

We were having a discussion about what Labour has to do to become electable and part of that discussion needs to be critical of what Labour are doing wrong. If you can't discuss that openly without trying to turn it up into a your side is worse than my side then perhaps that needs discussion too. Are socialists and active Labour supporters as much of the problem as the executive, leadership and key media figures? The way they diffuse and deflect because they cannot look at the root causes perhaps?

I have seen people reprimanded for wandering away from the thread title,but never before for wandering away from a topic which is itself a diversion from the original topic!
If what you dislike about England is the sorry state of the Labour Party, may I not mention a serious problem with the Tories, and the media neglect of reporting it, which is certainly something I dislike about the sorry state of the British media, as well as of the Tories.

Small fish in a big sea here, I don’t think that unless your huge donations to your favourite party or brown envelopes- they care after you vote for them.

Minimal interaction with the state my preferred method after years of experience telling my it was a pathway to disappointment.
Once you unwind from the hype machine of media & Government, you realise the hysteria.

Brexit or no Brexit- really not bothered as long as food etc available, if a specific EU product unavailable then I wouldn’t care.

Who is in power, past caring they are all smoke and mirrors, threats coercion etc all washes over me.

I’m a individual and not a citizen aka an anonymous number.

I hope for an equitable future

[661-Pete]

I have seen people reprimanded for wandering away from the thread title,but never before for wandering away from a topic which is itself a diversion from the original topic!

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about off-topic-ness, in The Tea Shop. After all, this is the social area of the forum - and social interaction can branch out into any reasonable topic (except being abusive).

Having said that, I must admit I was banned from two different Flat Earth Society forums for going - yes! - going off topic. Ah well - it's the Flat-Earthers after all. There's no reasoning with them.

[661-Pete]

Brexit or no Brexit- really not bothered as long as food etc available, if a specific EU product unavailable then I wouldn’t care.

I don't know if others have noticed, but we've seen a distinct shortage of frozen vegetables in the supermarkets this past week. Admittedly we don't buy a lot of frozen stuff (our freezer's not that big) but we needed to replenish our frozen spinach - a useful standby that we incorporate in several of our dishes. Waitrose: zilch. Tesco's: zilch. Lidl: zilch. Iceland (last resort): one small bag which I snapped up. There are other empty spaces in the supermarket freezers too. Only peas and chips still seem plentiful.

Panic buying? I hardly think so - not with lockdown supposedly easing. No queues. Imports from EU? You tell me....