I don't like living in England....

[Jdsk]

If the Scots want to leave the UK and join the Superstate they should be able to get on with it.

The Scots are possibly already in a superstate. They will have much more autonomy in the EU but out of the UK.

The UK actually is a superstate... unless anyone can find a contradictory definition...

But not only more autonomy. Also more constitutional protection.

Jonathan

[thirdcrank]

We seem to have some confusion between the effects of social class and nationality.

Anyway, if we set aside concepts, what's the loss to England in independence for Scotland?

eg There'd surely be renewed pressure for a review of the UK's permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

[Oldjohnw]

People living where I currently live, whilst respecting the Scots’ right to determine their future, are hugely concerned about Scottish Independence. I normal times I routinely cross the border several times a week just for the ordinary stuff of life.

My church has its congregation from both sides. My choir is from both sides. Shopping is both sides. Relatives are both sides.

[Jdsk]

Interesting points... but could we pick them up in the Scottish independence thread?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=143257

Jonathan

[markjohnobrien]

Scotland is and has been both subject nation & imperialist partner, so detangling the ties that bind them together is nigh on impossible, but even together in the UK they are united only some respects, so detangling some of the ties should be entirely feasible, and democratically determined.

I once walked round a Victorian graveyard in Musselburgh. It was full of the remains of Scotsmen who had run the British Empire. Soldiers, governors and administrators

The number of famous Scots from the 1700’s to the end of Empire is legion: John Buchan, administrator, governor of Canada, wonderful novelist and very good historian was the archetypal successful Scot and empire man. It was a joint endeavour.

[Jdsk]

Extraordinary life. There's a recent biography by Andrew Lownie who came to give a talk one night when we were putting on a reduced version of The Thirty-Nine Steps.

Recommended.

Jonathan

[markjohnobrien]

There was an excellent Scottish band called Stramash. It had a very eclectic collection of instruments from a trumpet and cello to the pipes.

If the Scots want to leave the UK and join the Superstate they should be able to get on with it.

Al

Too much shared history for me and joint endeavours over the years for Scotland becoming independent to be positive - a very, very, very, sad day if it happens.

We’ve worked as one (not withstanding the separate Scottish legal and education system) since the Act of Union in 1706/7 - and long may it continue.

Does 'worked as one' include the clearances? Or the banning of Scots Gaelic? Scotland is and has been both subject nation & imperialist partner, so detangling the ties that bind them together is nigh on impossible, but even together in the UK they are united only some respects, so detangling some of the ties should be entirely feasible, and democratically determined.

Yes, it does. It was the classic tussle between Scottish lowlanders who embraced the Act of Union and becoming part of Britain and were the political, financial, and military elites, as opposed to their differences with the highlanders who were on the opposite side of the argument and lost out in the clearances.

This myth of Scotland being a subject nation is fanciful: Scotland was a full and equal partner in the imperial project as seen by the vast amounts of Scottish governors, politicians, military men, inventors, settlers, in Empire. It was a joint endeavour.

From a literary perspective, the tensions are shown well in Robert Louis Stevenson’s Kidnapped with the hero Alan Breck representing the Highlanders and ties to France and Davie Balfour the man betwixt the lowland elites and his friendship with the Highlanders. A wonderful book as most of RLS’s output was.

[markjohnobrien]

Extraordinary life. There's a recent biography by Andrew Lownie who came to give a talk one night when we were putting on a reduced version of The Thirty-Nine Steps.

Recommended.

Jonathan

Ooohhh: I haven’t read this and love John Buchan. I’ve even got his autobiography on the shelves.

[Mike Sales]

Lachlan Macquarie, sometimes called the Father of Australia, was important to the development of the colony.
He was born on Ulva, by Mull.
There are many places, islands, institutions etc. named for him in Australia.

I am an RLS fan too.

Under the wide and starry sky,
Dig the grave and let me lie.
Glad did I live and gladly die,
And I laid me down with a will.

This be the verse you grave for me:
Here he lies where he longed to be;
Home is the sailor, home from sea,
And the hunter home from the hill.

[markjohnobrien]

Interesting points... but could we pick them up in the Scottish independence thread?
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=143257

Jonathan

Good point - I got carried away in my love of John Buchan and Robert Louis Stevenson.

[Jdsk]

: - )

Jonathan

[Oldjohnw]

The UK has had Scottish PMs, Scottish Chancellors, Scottish Foreign Secretaries. Who all voted for restrictions in England which would not apply to their families in Scotland. Tuition fees, care for the elderly for example

Hardly subservient.

[thirdcrank]

The UK has had Scottish PMs, Scottish Chancellors, Scottish Foreign Secretaries. Who all voted for restrictions in England which would not apply to their families in Scotland. Tuition fees, care for the elderly for example

Hardly subservient.

Don't forget at least one Home Secretary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reid ... f_Cardowan

[Ben@Forest]

Does 'worked as one' include the clearances? Or the banning of Scots Gaelic? Scotland is and has been both subject nation & imperialist partner, so detangling the ties that bind them together is nigh on impossible, but even together in the UK they are united only some respects, so detangling some of the ties should be entirely feasible, and democratically determined.

Yes, it does. It was the classic tussle between Scottish lowlanders who embraced the Act of Union and becoming part of Britain and were the political, financial, and military elites, as opposed to their differences with the highlanders who were on the opposite side of the argument and lost out in the clearances.

This myth of Scotland being a subject nation is fanciful: Scotland was a full and equal partner in the imperial project as seen by the vast amounts of Scottish governors, politicians, military men, inventors, settlers, in Empire. It was a joint endeavour.

The distribution of land ownership in Scotland is not something that was solely caused by English or Anglo-Scottish landlords - this relates to Scottish society:

In the first centuries of feudalism, the aristocracy and their kinship groups added nearly all the land that had been held by the Crown to their estates. This was followed by the previously extensive lands of the Church, with the final Church lands being obtained by these major private land owners when the Reformation of 1560 abolished the old Catholic Church.

At the same time, the old Scots Parliament, which was overwhelmingly dominated by landed interests, devoted the bulk of its time to legislation designed to entrench and protect the property rights of land owners. One such Act in 1617 established the Register of Sasines (from the French saisir = to seize), which gave greater security to land titles. Another, the Law of Entail, was introduced in 1685 and prevented land from being lost even when a land owner went bankrupt (Wightman, Callendar, Boyd 2003)

Around the same time the Scottish Commonty Acts allowed common land to be divided out into the private property of neighbouring landowners. Though the same happened in England though the Enclosure Acts the Scottish acts were simpler, easier and cheaper for those who benefited. All this before the 1707 Act of Union.

[Vorpal]

I was going to point out that in both countries it was the gentry and upper classes who had any say in anything. Even until the 20th century, the poorest in society were disenfranchised. In the 18th and 19th centuries only a small proportion of adult males in any of the countries of the United Kingdom could vote or were represented in parliament. While that proportion increased with reform, it wasn't until the 20th century that a majority of adult men & women in the UK could vote.