I don't like living in England....

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Mike Sales
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Mike Sales »

al_yrpal wrote: 25 Jul 2021, 4:51pm Why cant we all quietly just get along?

Al
Hear, hear.
Of course a great help to getting on with other people is to try to understand their point of view.
To do this it is helpful to understand their use of the language.
The Merriam-Webster dictionary defined "woke" as meaning a state of being "aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)."
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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al_yrpal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by al_yrpal »

If thats what Woke meant in practice no one could have any problem with it. Unfortunately my definition is often closer to the real state of affairs and thats why it has bad conotations and so many adverse reactions. Shutting down free speech never works.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Mike Sales
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Mike Sales »

al_yrpal wrote: 25 Jul 2021, 6:00pm If thats what Woke meant in practice no one could have any problem with it. Unfortunately my definition is often closer to the real state of affairs and thats why it has bad conotations and so many adverse reactions. Shutting down free speech never works.

Al
Understanding others and what they mean is not best served by telling them what they mean.
Not allowing others to express themselves as they wish is a way of shutting down free speech.
Do try to understand, and not impose your own views.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
merseymouth
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by merseymouth »

Dear TM, I can think of 96 good reasons to detest TBW! Reasons that other areas did not suffer abuse over, cow.
After slandering people without any evidence, she then had the brass neck to force her presence in one of our Cathedrals for the memorial service, using he troops to block off large areas of the city so folk couldn't get at her!
When Biffo Boris shared the slanderous attitude I wrote to him to put him straight over the issues, he was editor of the Spectator at that time.
He at least had the decency to wrote a full and frank apology.
So other areas haven't had to endure the same degree of pain due to her mouth! MM
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al_yrpal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by al_yrpal »

Mike Sales wrote: 25 Jul 2021, 6:09pm
al_yrpal wrote: 25 Jul 2021, 6:00pm If thats what Woke meant in practice no one could have any problem with it. Unfortunately my definition is often closer to the real state of affairs and thats why it has bad conotations and so many adverse reactions. Shutting down free speech never works.

Al
Understanding others and what they mean is not best served by telling them what they mean.
Not allowing others to express themselves as they wish is a way of shutting down free speech.
Do try to understand, and not impose your own views.
I never have, and I dont, take it or leave it. Its the Wokers who are trying to do that, literally cancelling people and trying to shut down free speech. They are not succeeding.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
roubaixtuesday
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 25 Jul 2021, 4:51pm Its unecessary and an imposition. Why cant we all quietly just get along?

Al
Perhaps listening rather than lecturing other people about what is, and is not necessary could help?
Mike Sales
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Mike Sales »

I wrote
Understanding others and what they mean is not best served by telling them what they mean.
You replied
I never have, and I dont, take it or leave it.
But earlier you did just that.
Unfortunately my definition is often closer to the real state of affairs
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Oldjohnw
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

Based on the dictionary definition, I will try my best to be woke, :D
John
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Vorpal »

Author Ijeoma Oluo wrote:
The most common defintions of racism are as follows: (1) Racism is any prejudice against someone because of their race. Or (2) Racism is any prejudice against someone because of their race, when those views are reinforced by systems of power. While these two definitions are very close to each other in many ways, the differences between these two definitions of racism drastically change how you look at and address racism in America.
For the purposes of this book, I'm going to use the second definition of racism: a prejudice against someone based on race, when those prejudices are reinforced by systems of power. And this is the definition I recommend you use in your day-to-day life if your goal is to reduce the systemic harm done to people of color by racism in America. Let me explain why.
When we use only the first definition of racism, as any prejudice against someone based on race, we inaccurately reduce issues of race in America to a battle for the hearts and minds of individual racists--instead of seeing racists, racist behaviors, and racial oppression as part of a larger system....
The truth is, you don't even have to "be racist" to be a part of a racist system.
While they were clearly writing about the USA, the same systems of oppression exist in the UK, and most other Western nations, as a result of the history of colonialism, slavery, and the exploitation that accompanied those.

Whatever the dictionary definition, 'woke' is simply recognising the systems of oppression, and the behaviour that results. TBH, I don't think that any white folks really need to use the term.

For folks who want to 'get along', recognising, and helping to address the racism in the system is necessary.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Oldjohnw
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

Woke was never meant to be a pejorative term. But that is how too many are using it. No-one on these pages, of course.
John
Ben@Forest
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

Vorpal wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 8:57am While they were clearly writing about the USA, the same systems of oppression exist in the UK, and most other Western nations, as a result of the history of colonialism, slavery, and the exploitation that accompanied those.

Whatever the dictionary definition, 'woke' is simply recognising the systems of oppression, and the behaviour that results. TBH, I don't think that any white folks really need to use the term.
And therein lies the rub. What 'woke' is, and where it started from, is open to a hundred interpretations, not just your incredibly simplistic one. America has been enveloped by Critical Race Theory and how and where it should be taught or applied, especially as a framework for academics trying to find ways of addressing racial inequities through the education system. It is however exactly what is says - a theory. There are white academics who do think it should be taught and applied and black academics who think it shouldn't.

It's not to say racism doesn't exist - though it's really quite incredible how it's largely being seen through the prism of US slavery and by connotation, the European slave trade. But slavery was still being practiced in China, the world's most populous nation, till at least the mid 20th century, and, not least because of the Uighurs, is still being practiced now. We seem to want to obsess about our own history, where the situation can only be said to be slowly improving, at the expense of modern day slavery today.
Vorpal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Vorpal »

I wasn't trying to suggest that racism and oppression are unique to the Western world. It's just the only one I have any knowledge of.

I would not think to write about racism in China, at least not without considerable research. I am cautious even about writing about racism in places where I have witnessed it. Because I am white. Although I come from a mixed race family, however 'woke' I might like to think myself, what I have observed is yet different to what my cousins have experienced.

That said, just because Critical Race Theory begins with the supposition that systemic racism exists, calling it a theory doesn't make the systemic issues go away. The main reason CRT exists is because people spent so much time arguing about *whether* systemic/institutional racism/oppression exists, that they were getting nowhere with what to do about it.

As a white person, I don't feel that I can or should get any mileage out of arguing about the validity of CRT. I prefer to read stuff about it written by Black authors, and to oppose racism as best as I can.

IMO, the biggest problem with most of this stuff is that groups of (mostly) white people are tying to decide what racism should or shouldn't be, and IMO, it's not their place. It's not their place to decide if CRT should be taught. It's not their place to decide how to teach the history of slavery. It's not their place to decide how much oppression remains in our societies. Yet, that is exactly what happens. They argue about what should or shouldn't be taught; text books paint slave traders as business people and leaders without adequately acknowledging the forced labour and death that underlaid their wealth, etc.

The book I quoted above, So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo provides an excellent perspective on modern racism, and I highly recommend reading it.

p.s. the 'incredibly simplistic' definition of woke I used came from a Black friend, and I'm inclined to accept her definition. Oluo uses the word without defining it, though her discussion suggests that she defines it more along the lines of: accepting that privilege exists & being willing to check your own privilege when challenged.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Ben@Forest
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

Vorpal wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 3:07pm IMO, the biggest problem with most of this stuff is that groups of (mostly) white people are tying to decide what racism should or shouldn't be, and IMO, it's not their place. It's not their place to decide if CRT should be taught. It's not their place to decide how to teach the history of slavery. It's not their place to decide how much oppression remains in our societies. Yet, that is exactly what happens. They argue about what should or shouldn't be taught; text books paint slave traders as business people and leaders without adequately acknowledging the forced labour and death that underlaid their wealth, etc.

The book I quoted above, So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo provides an excellent perspective on modern racism, and I highly recommend reading it.

p.s. the 'incredibly simplistic' definition of woke I used came from a Black friend, and I'm inclined to accept her definition. Oluo uses the word without defining it, though her discussion suggests that she defines it more along the lines of: accepting that privilege exists & being willing to check your own privilege when challenged.
I can't say disagree with much of that, but it is again so loaded to the US experience. African slavery, though it evidently contributed to domestic wealth here, simply wasn't the huge pool of domestic labour it was in the US. Mainly white people built railways, dug crops, mined coal and operated power looms, often in appalling conditions and with a huge amount of child labour (and mainly without the vote.)

I'm not trying to equate the experience of the British working class to slavery, but at the same time our experience was not that of the slavery, the Jim Crow laws or the official segregation of the US. It is a false equivalence to make it so.
slowster
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by slowster »

I found the article below on Critical Race Theory interesting.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... ion-497046
Oldjohnw
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

The limits to free speech:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... SApp_Other

We do know that idiots listen to these things and try to carry them out. Remember Jo Cox’s murder; storming the Capitol. The tweet yesterday, thankfully removed and apologised for, by the Health Secretary adds fuel to the flames.
John
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