I don't like living in England....

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Vorpal
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Vorpal »

Ben@Forest wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 3:51pm I can't say disagree with much of that, but it is again so loaded to the US experience. African slavery, though it evidently contributed to domestic wealth here, simply wasn't the huge pool of domestic labour it was in the US. Mainly white people built railways, dug crops, mined coal and operated power looms, often in appalling conditions and with a huge amount of child labour (and mainly without the vote.)

I'm not trying to equate the experience of the British working class to slavery, but at the same time our experience was not that of the slavery, the Jim Crow laws or the official segregation of the US. It is a false equivalence to make it so.
I am not trying to create any false equivalence, but I think the similarities between racism in one country and another are hard to underestimate.

TBH, I though for years that the UK was a little better than the US, and Norway was better, yet. My work place is more diverse, despite a lower population of ethnic minorities, I didn't observe as much racism, and my children are taught about diversity and inclusion in school, not just as a matter of formal lessons, but integrated into the development of social relationships in the classroom, and a diverse body of teaching staff. But, more recently, I have heard and seen extreme racism, and as my children get older, I have learned that racist language, humour and stereotype jokes are common among teens. I've indirectly observed similar things in the UK.

My Black and POC friends report many similar experiences between the US, UK, and Norway, in difficulty finding work, being called derogatory and racist names, or simply experience the sort of subtle prejudice and microaggressions that can be difficult to pin down as racism, but a white person is less likely to experience.

There are some things unique about the US experience; one is simply that racists are more comfortable being open about their racism. And I think that this is what resulted in my observing less overt racism in the UK than the US and less in Norway than the UK (more about this in a bit). The other thing is that while Black and POC folks in the US have a higher probability of being impacted by systemic racism, the individual experience on a day-to-day basis is probably not as different as you might think. A Black American friend living in Norway said that there were more differences from one office to another in the US than between the US and Norway. That one company might have a diverse work force and reasonable social environment, and another is a day-to-day battle against anything from a barrage of microaggressions to overt hostility. She's only worked a couple of places in Norway, but has other friends here who work in a wider variety of situations.

Back to my observations... I recently realised that there are two problems with using what I observe to understand racism. The first is that being white, I will never observe the full extent. There are some parallels with sexism, but it isn't the same. I do experience less sexism in Norway, and I thought that had implications for racism, but I no longer think that. The second problem with using my observations is that when people are less overt about racism, they are also less likely to talk about it, or address the problems. It is much easier to pretend it isn't a problem, and IMO, this is especially true when the manifestations of systemic racism are more subtle (i.e. difficulty getting a job or a mortgage, rather than bias in the justice system). They've done some studies here, swapping names on CVs and what have you. A CV with a Norwegian name is the most likely to be selected for interview. The same CVs with clearly African or Islamic names are the least likely to be selected for interview.

Few countries are without any history of slavery. The specifics may differ. The UK has, to my knowledge never allowed ownership of people, as such, but servitude & forced labour have persisted into modern times, despite regulations and policing.

Of course what I write is partly anecdotal, but there is a case to be made by someone with more expertise that the lack of background of slavery and segregation make it more difficult for society to confront the racial power differential, rather than less. If the gap is smaller, the unwillingness to acknowledge it is disproportionately larger. And in the US, the government has legislated against discrimination, and used the power of the courts to back it up. In other other countries, the governments are complicit in racist practices. Even where they are not, refusing to acknowledge them, making proof burdensome, or not imposing significant penalties, makes it extremely difficult to fight against in any practical or legal manner.

Norway does some things well, but folks with far more expertise than I persistently criticise the Norwegian government for not taking the far right, extreme racism and Islamophobia seriously enough.


That's a lot of words to deny false equivalencies, but the heart of this issue is that racism from the victims perspective looks remarkably similar from one country to another. It doesn't really matter whether the N-word is said with a British or American accent, does it? It doesn't matter whether the football results or a BLM protest prompt a racist remark.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

Those of us who have worked in the criminal justice system are generally aware that racism is alive and well.

It is seen in the disproportionate use of custody for black people for the same crime. And it is seen in the way that within a prison black people are often treated as a lower species. They are talked about as “those people”. If a black prisoner has a genuine complaint the officer would say to me “they are just using the race card”. It happened more than it didn’t.

That is one area of life.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by al_yrpal »

I believe we are all well aware of racism and we all know a racist or two, its everywhere. I think the BLM movement might have made some people think but wont actually sway the hardened racists one little bit. It will just be a signal that overt racism wont be tolerated.
One person that has shined a light on racism for me is the US comedian Reginald D Hunter. I have been to a couple of his live shows and watched his TV appearances with interest. He lets you into his feelings concerning race. Utmost respect to him.

Al
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Tangled Metal »

I dare say racism is everywhere just like prejudice and other backwards attitudes towards others. Institutional prejudice is not just in majority white nations. There was an interesting documentary I saw a short piece of where the majority tribal faction in a room of the African country concerned treated the minority tribal faction as virtual slaves and subhuman. The majority had the money and power. The minority often struggled to survive and often ended up in debt to the majority. They showed one such example. The person in debt had to work for nothing to pay off the debt but he could never pay off the debt. He got beaten and abused in many ways. If he tried to stand up for himself he'd know the authorities would take the oppressor's side because they're in the same tribe. It was a depressing example of humans mistreating other humans over artificial social or cultural constructs and perceived differences,/inferiority. I couldn't v watch it for long.

My point being there's a core defect in humans I believe that allows this prejudice to exist. I do not believe any of us is completely free of this as much as we try to become enlightened people. It doesn't have to come out as racism it has other outlets I believe. Some of which does appear on this forum too.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Oldjohnw »

"I'm tolerant of everybody so long as they agree with me" seems a not uncommon approach.

I'm not racist/sexist/ageist but...
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 1:39pmMy point being there's a core defect in humans I believe that allows this prejudice to exist. I do not believe any of us is completely free of this as much as we try to become enlightened people. It doesn't have to come out as racism it has other outlets I believe.
It's often called "outgroup hatred".

There isn't a fixed amount that has to go somewhere.

It has decreased over time.

I recommend Pinker's Better Angels:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bette ... Our_Nature

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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by thirdcrank »

And IMO cyclists are now one of the few outgroups it's ok to hate.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by al_yrpal »

One of my favourite books is the Lunatic Express. Although its about the Lunatic railway the first part is about Britains reluctant possession of East Africa and how the booming slave trade existed long before the white man appeared and the subsequent Royal Navy anti slaving patrols.
A very interesting book also containing an account of the Lions of Tsavo and the possibility of an Israel in Northern Kenya and the local reaction to that.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

Vorpal wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 11:44am There are some things unique about the US experience; one is simply that racists are more comfortable being open about their racism....
America seems to be a more tribal society full stop. Peoples' need to identify themselves by heritage seems never ending. Joe Biden is a prime example - he happily identifies as Irish even though he is at best Irish-American, it's from generations back and appears to have as much English ancestry as Irish. I went to a conference dinner once (well I've been to a few) but at this one the guest of honour/speaker was an American. The first part of his speech was only about his English heritage even though his heritage had nothing to do with the part of England we were in; you could see people's faces glazing over....

I've worked with a Latvian woman over the years, she has worked in Latvia, the UK and the USA. She was astonished by the way Americans identified as Italian, Irish and Scottish (and those were the nationalities she chose to mention) when any connection was generations back, they have never been to the country the call 'home' and know absolutely nothing, or at best very little, about the country. It seems strange that Americans want to own a bit of heritage that really they have no part of. I can't even tell you where my great grandparents come from and it really doesn't matter, but for Americans it appears to.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Assuming that you mean inhabitants of the USA... (other Americans are available):

1 It's a settler state, very different from eg England.

2 Large scale migration was very recent.

3 The Civil War wasn't that long ago. And the story of what happened afterwards is only now being widely discussed and understood.

Jonathan
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Mike Sales »

I thought that USAnians looking for their heritage in the Scottish Highlands were figures of fun, until I recalled the likely reason their ancestors left.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 27 Jul 2021, 3:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 3:01pm I thought that USAnians looking for their heritage in the Scottish Highlands were figures of fun, until I recalled why their ancestors had probably left.
You could imagine what might be written as a motto in a big statue at the port of arrival...

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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Ben@Forest »

Jdsk wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 2:58pm Assuming that you mean inhabitants of the USA... (other Americans are available):

1 It's a settler state, very different from eg England.

2 Large scale migration was very recent.

3 The Civil War wasn't that long ago. And the story of what happened afterwards is only now being widely discussed and understood.

Jonathan
It still doesn't fit with the European experience. I went out with a German woman whose family (on her father's side) had pretty well had to leave what was originally Prussia at the end of WW2 as did millions of other German speakers. That area became Poland and Poland didn't want ethnic, German-speaking, Prussians. So now they lived in the Ruhrgebiet, they didn't identify as 'Prussian' or call Prussia 'home'.

Though there had been 'pressure groups' to try and get Prussia back they had disappeared by the 1960s. Possibly as many as 3 million Germans were forced out of Poland - in 5 years I never heard one person describe their old German/Prussian heritage in a romantic or longing way.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by slowster »

Identity politics versus 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
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Re: I don't like living in England....

Post by Tangled Metal »

thirdcrank wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 2:10pm And IMO cyclists are now one of the few outgroups it's ok to hate.
Try canoeists.
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