I don't like living in England....

[Jdsk]

As Oscar Wilde might have said, “ To lose one heritage site, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose more looks like carelessness.”

Is the case for the judicial review of the Stonehenge decision available?

Summary in Tunnelling Journal (usual pun available on request):
https://tunnellingjournal.com/high-cour ... challenge/

Jonathan

[Oldjohnw]

This isnt an academic laboratory, its a forum about cycling and we are allowed to express opinions.

My Camper broke down on the A303 right opposite Stonehenge. People visiting wouldnt wish to see stationary traffic belching noxious fumes yards from the monument. A tunnel is a great idea. And, folk live and work around Liverpools docks, they should be allowed to do so, it doesnt detract from the facts about one of the worlds most significant historic ports. I believe some people in Unesco want to delist Britain and its probably partially due to Brexit.

Al

Just as a matter of interest, it is the local planners who opposed the tunnel. Not UNESCO, although their views were included.But then, why let facts get in the way?

Stonehenge A303 tunnel: Date set for judicial review https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-w ... e-56214109

[Jdsk]

On the evidence of effect on tourism:

This week's Economist has an article on Liverpool, but the decision about listing came too late to be covered. (May be paywalled.)
"Liverpool’s changing skyline defies UNESCO":
https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/ ... ies-unesco

With a bit of luck they'll now review the economics.

UNESCO's own tabulation of studies:
https://whc.unesco.org/en/socio-economic-impacts/

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

Jonathan, if I was looking for an explanation as to why these seemingly daft decisions were being made I would take a leaf out of forensic historical research and look at which individuals are making these surprising decisions. Does Unesco's panel include 'experts' from the UK, known local opponents, people who display a continuous down on the UK, Guardian journalists and other malcontents?
If you had studied history seriously you would appreciate the need to examine these factors carefully.

Al

[Jdsk]

... if I was looking for an explanation as to why these seemingly daft decisions were being made I would take a leaf out of forensic historical research and look at which individuals are making these surprising decisions. Does Unesco's panel include 'experts' from the UK, known local opponents, people who display a continuous down on the UK, Guardian journalists and other malcontents?

I'm not sure if that's meant seriously...

But I think that we're already familiar with the sort of explanation that you'd favour:

I suspect skulduggery.

I believe some people in Unesco want to delist Britain and its probably partially due to Brexit.

Is that "partially" or "totally"?

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

Jonathan, we all have our predjudices. Yours is as obvious as mine

Al

[Jdsk]

Who cares about UNESCO?

It seems that the people of Liverpool might.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... y-21105577

It seems though that Liverpool had ample warning about what developments might affect the designation though - so authorities knew what they were doing.

I've found it hard to find any detail on that. Despite my emotional attachment to and interest in Liverpool I didn't see this coming, and I wonder how much was caused by poor communications. The local government was in a serious mess throughout that period and that might explain some of it.

Jonathan

[Psamathe]

.... Most PR systems end up with several parties doing deals behind closed doors, as in Israel. What emerges is a programme not put to, or voted for, by anyone.

Isn't "a programme not put to, or voted for, by anyone" what we have with the current batch of Conservatives? Lots of examples but recent one the 0.7% Overseas Aid manifesto commitment that people did vote on and ...

Ian

[al_yrpal]

I have been to the Taj Mahal and the Great Wall as well as Liverpools docklands and I cannot fathom why they should have the same status as those two exceptionally astounding structures anyway. Old warehouses, docks and waterfronts arent exceptional, its what happened there long ago that makes them special. Perhaps Unesco listings should have a grading structure like our listed buildings?

Al

Sorry MM..

[pwa]

.... Most PR systems end up with several parties doing deals behind closed doors, as in Israel. What emerges is a programme not put to, or voted for, by anyone.

Isn't "a programme not put to, or voted for, by anyone" what we have with the current batch of Conservatives? Lots of examples but recent one the 0.7% Overseas Aid manifesto commitment that people did vote on and ...

Ian

I think we have to expect that in a period of national emergency, plans and promises made before it occurred will be binned. But in more normal times, I would expect a single party government to have a decent stab in the direction of meeting manifesto commitments. And I would expect that government to have been voted in by upwards of a third of the electorate, with a portion of the remainder not being too bothered one way or the other. In practice, UK parties cannot be too extreme and expect to win over moderate voters, which makes them pitch for the centre ground. Witness Boris at the moment, trying to look like someone who wants to "level up", and Starmer trying not to look like he is a Trot. "First past the post" forces parties to try to appeal to whatever the centre ground is at the time. I believe there is some value in that.

[pwa]

I have been to the Taj Mahal and the Great Wall as well as Liverpools docklands and I cannot fathom why they should have the same status as those two exceptionally astounding structures anyway. Old warehouses, docks and waterfronts arent exceptional, its what happened there long ago that makes them special. Perhaps Unesco listings should have a grading structure like our listed buildings?

Al

Sorry MM..

Simple. The history made by Liverpool changed the world more profoundly than did the great Wall of China or the Taj Mahal. Or the pyramids of Egypt for that matter. The buildings in Liverpool are less striking, but their historical significance is enormously greater.

[merseymouth]

Hi again, Boy o boy, it would be a miracle if anyone to explain the thoughts going through the minds of the current and former political leaders in any city!
Even the brain workings of the blessed "Degsy", Brother Hatton, are beyond fathoming. With him it was always do as I say, not do as I do! Don't know if his own wife was at one with the lad, Socialism was not in evidence when they strutted around in their finery at the International Garden Festival? Well in baking heat sharp suits, fur coats and dripping with gold was an eye opener! A "99" wouldn't be elite enough for them. Definitely more Faberge Egg, rather than Cadbury's Cream Ones .
But the hardest thing to work out is the mental processes of the UNESCO panel?
In my eyes the Bramley-Moore development would be great for that area of dockland waste! To restore the 6 Sided Clock would please me greatly, especially as the land owner (Suspect right to title), Peel Holdings are a disgrace, laws mean nothing to them.
So I say - Sod Off UNESCO, go back to cloud cuckoo land! MM

* No worry Al, Better to have a living community than to live with the smell of mothballs lingering in our nostrils! (Mothaks for mothballs, another Liverpool great).
I'm always at our council for their loopy schemes, next two campaigns will be to remove the asinine cycle use without segregation on Princes Avenue's pavements! Then to restore the memorial to those who kept the Atlantic Trade Routes working during WW2. The beautiful tribute was for some strange reason removed at the time that the wet white elephant was created at the Pierhead! Inland waterway extension which should have never been carried out.
The memorial is I'm informed in store in a secret location, so secret that all of the paperwork relating to it has gone missing. Now that is sorely missed. MM

[al_yrpal]

Wot I said.

Al

[pwa]

Wot I said.

Al

What makes a site worthy of being a World Heritage Site, in your view? Is it just an impressive structure with a bit of age, or does it also involve a significant role in World history? When you get right down to it, the Taj Mahal is just an ostentatious bit of bling that had no significance for the rest of the world, except as a subject for postcards. The same applies to the pyramids of Egypt. Impressive, yes, but without real significance to the rest of the world. But the little known site in Shropshire where coke was first used successfully to make good iron is arguably where the Industrial Revolution took off, and that changed everything. I'd sooner see sites that really matter to world history, rather than sites that just have an impressive structure.

[Psamathe]

.... Most PR systems end up with several parties doing deals behind closed doors, as in Israel. What emerges is a programme not put to, or voted for, by anyone.

Isn't "a programme not put to, or voted for, by anyone" what we have with the current batch of Conservatives? Lots of examples but recent one the 0.7% Overseas Aid manifesto commitment that people did vote on and ...

Ian

I think we have to expect that in a period of national emergency, plans and promises made before it occurred will be binned. But in more normal times, I would expect a single party government to have a decent stab in the direction of meeting manifesto commitments. ....

My concern (beyond a wealthy country cutting aid with no warning) is that the amounts being saved are trivial in comparison to the money Johnson has spaffed up the wall to his mates through dodgy contracts. It was a manifesto commitment we have no need to break as we can save that amount many times over (except wealthy ex-Etonians and mates of Ministers might not get so much "money for nothing").

Ian