Nurses Pay Award

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mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Being accountable for something doesn't mean that you have to make every individual decision. It's often better to delegate and increase the period over which you're held to account.

Do politicians (e.g. Ministers) have any control over the period which they are held to account? If public opinion/press take issue with cutting certain types of treatment to make up for an independently set pay increase can the Minister decide to stay on for a few extra years to extend the "accountability term" or demand the PM not sack him/her in a "reshuffle"?

If you can move decisions away from today's headlines it makes it easier to get some genuine accountability and transparency.

Jonathan


And what concrete identifiable changes are you proposing that will make this change? How do you propose to implement "genuine accountability and transparency." At the moment your proposals sound very vague.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Jdsk »

mikeymo wrote:
Jdsk wrote:No, as in "not the individual decisions".

Of course Parliament could comment on anything it wants.

It's not clear what you are proposing would change, in practice. If the government wouldn't be obliged to carry out the recommendations of the various bodies, as is now the situation, what is different? Please explain.

It's very difficult to get much improvement from single changes when the democratic deficit is so great. But I would make the decisions of the Pay Review Body binding, and ensure that the brief they are given and all of their workings are transparent.

Then its work and its decisions would be considered by Parliament as part of a regular review. The NAO and the Select Committees are pretty good at this.

This isn't as unusual as it sounds: vast number of other decisions in healthcare and elsewhere are made by bodies over than Ministers. And if we ever get a review of our response to the outbreak we'll see which approach worked better and which was more transparent and which stayed closer to the available evidence and which avoided cronyism and corruption.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 7 Mar 2021, 12:41pm, edited 1 time in total.
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:You'd like a longer period over which to hold the government to account? A general election every five years is too short a period?

No.

I'd like whoever makes decisions about eg nurses' pay to be held to account over longer terms. Today's headlines are a bit too short. And party politics too trivial.

But perhaps you could remind me how Ministers who currently make these decisions are held to account for them?

Jonathan


The voters vote for another government at the next election.

Or in the case of a minister who is an MP (which most are), they vote for another candidate at the next election.

Or both.

How do you propose Ministers should be "held to account"?
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Being accountable for something doesn't mean that you have to make every individual decision. It's often better to delegate and increase the period over which you're held to account.

Do politicians (e.g. Ministers) have any control over the period which they are held to account? If public opinion/press take issue with cutting certain types of treatment to make up for an independently set pay increase can the Minister decide to stay on for a few extra years to extend the "accountability term" or demand the PM not sack him/her in a "reshuffle"?

If you can move decisions away from today's headlines it makes it easier to get some genuine accountability and transparency.

Jonathan

I can't see how that could happen e.g. in the current situation. NHS and current deficit/debt are very much in the headlines and public awareness, particularly as unemployment increases, etc. And Governments are regularly being "held to account" by oppositions (as it their job) with "how is it going to be paid for". Given the example of the current Government/country finances I think it right that major public sector pay decisions are "in the headlines" insofar as the public show an interest and be kept aware and have somebody to hold accountable.

I don't see how keeping such issues out of the headlines would increase accountability and transparency.

Ian
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:
Jdsk wrote:No, as in "not the individual decisions".

Of course Parliament could comment on anything it wants.

It's not clear what you are proposing would change, in practice. If the government wouldn't be obliged to carry out the recommendations of the various bodies, as is now the situation, what is different? Please explain.

It's very difficult to get much improvement from single changes when the democratic deficit is so great. But I would make the decisions of the Pay Review Body binding, and ensure that the brief they are given and all of their workings are transparent.


To be clear, do you mean just the nurses Pay Review Body? (or whatever it's called).
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Jdsk »

mikeymo wrote:How do you propose Ministers should be "held to account"?

Predominantly by Parliament. Much more rigorously than at present. With much greater separation of powers. And this shouldn't be limited to decisions about nurses' pay.

And something that gives the Code of Conduct some teeth wouldn't be a bad idea.
mikeymo wrote:The voters vote for another government at the next election.

Or in the case of a minister who is an MP (which most are), they vote for another candidate at the next election.

Or both.

In the UK... I only get to vote at national level for an MP. Not the head of government. Not Ministers. Not political appointments who are now being given much greater power with very little accountability. Not the Head of State. Not policies.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Jdsk »

mikeymo wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:It's not clear what you are proposing would change, in practice. If the government wouldn't be obliged to carry out the recommendations of the various bodies, as is now the situation, what is different? Please explain.

It's very difficult to get much improvement from single changes when the democratic deficit is so great. But I would make the decisions of the Pay Review Body binding, and ensure that the brief they are given and all of their workings are transparent.


To be clear, do you mean just the nurses Pay Review Body? (or whatever it's called).

No, but that's what this is about. Except for not only affecting nurses.

Our system is far too centralised and Ministers have far too much power.

Jonathan
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote:If you can move decisions away from today's headlines it makes it easier to get some genuine accountability and transparency.


"today's headlines" are where the people find out about what's going on. Maybe it would be better if all discussion of important matters were to take place in the journals of suitably qualified experts in their field, away from the gaze of the ignorati.

or perhaps we've just got the wrong sort of headlines.

This all sounds a great deal like "let us decide, we know better than you, and better than the people you elected".
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:How do you propose Ministers should be "held to account"?

Predominantly by Parliament. Much more rigorously than at present. With much greater separation of powers.


Specifics please. This is just a set of vague proposals.
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:How do you propose Ministers should be "held to account"?

Predominantly by Parliament. Much more rigorously than at present. With much greater separation of powers. And this shouldn't be limited to decisions about nurses' pay.

And something that gives the Code of Conduct some teeth wouldn't be a bad idea.
....

I suspect that would mean a very very radical change to the way Westminster currently works - probably a change for the better but a change of the magnitude that would never happen in the real world. That nature of the Whipp'ing system makes it unlikely the Government would be defeated. MPs from the party holding the majority/power would be faced with voting against and even bringing down their own party meaning a General Election; and those MPs would face more of a challenge within their constituencies.

Ian
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Jdsk »

mikeymo wrote:"today's headlines" are where the people find out about what's going on. Maybe it would be better if all discussion of important matters were to take place in the journals of suitably qualified experts in their field, away from the gaze of the ignorati.

That would be a very bad idea. And whenever you've asked where I think the accountability should lie I've answered, and I've repeatedly stressed the need for greater transparency than at present.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:How do you propose Ministers should be "held to account"?

Predominantly by Parliament. Much more rigorously than at present. With much greater separation of powers. And this shouldn't be limited to decisions about nurses' pay.

And something that gives the Code of Conduct some teeth wouldn't be a bad idea.
....

I suspect that would mean a very very radical change to the way Westminster currently works - probably a change for the better but a change of the magnitude that would never happen in the real world. That nature of the Whipp'ing system makes it unlikely the Government would be defeated. MPs from the party holding the majority/power would be faced with voting against and even bringing down their own party meaning a General Election; and those MPs would face more of a challenge within their constituencies.

Yes, radical change, please.

Losing a vote on a major issue shouldn't and doesn't need to bring down an Executive. It's the UK's inadequate separation of powers that makes it work that way.

And fewer MPs being in safe seats would be an excellent change for more democracy.

Jonathan
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by Psamathe »

Jdsk wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Predominantly by Parliament. Much more rigorously than at present. With much greater separation of powers. And this shouldn't be limited to decisions about nurses' pay.

And something that gives the Code of Conduct some teeth wouldn't be a bad idea.
....

I suspect that would mean a very very radical change to the way Westminster currently works - probably a change for the better but a change of the magnitude that would never happen in the real world. That nature of the Whipp'ing system makes it unlikely the Government would be defeated. MPs from the party holding the majority/power would be faced with voting against and even bringing down their own party meaning a General Election; and those MPs would face more of a challenge within their constituencies.

Yes, radical change, please.

Losing a vote on a major issue shouldn't and doesn't need to bring down an Executive. It's the UK's inadequate separation of powers that makes it work that way.

And fewer MPs being in safe seats would be an excellent change for more democracy.

Jonathan

I agree but I can't see it happening. Only change I can see that I (currently) think would help would be coalition. During the Conservative/Lib Dem coalition I thought it terrible but when that changed to a Conservative (same incumbents) after General Election I appreciated that the Lib Dems were almost certainly a far more moderating influence that I had realised at the time. I don't think it's an "answer" but something that might happen. Otherwise I can't see any way things are going to change.

Even minor tweaks wont happen as they will make the power in the majority party weaker or more vulnerable so it wont even get considered.

Ian
cycle tramp
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Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by cycle tramp »

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -political

'If you're not angry, you haven't been paying enough attention'...
old punk saying
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Nurses Pay Award

Post by mikeymo »

Jdsk wrote:
mikeymo wrote:"today's headlines" are where the people find out about what's going on. Maybe it would be better if all discussion of important matters were to take place in the journals of suitably qualified experts in their field, away from the gaze of the ignorati.

That would be a very bad idea. And whenever you've asked where I think the accountability should lie I've answered, and I've repeatedly stressed the need for greater transparency than at present.

Jonathan


Give me a concrete proposal. Some change that could be implemented that will do what you think. "let's have greater transparency" means nothing to me. Tell me what you want to happen. An act of parliament, a change to a regulation, a constitutional change. But something.
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