Possible 10 years for damaging a statue?

[Mike Sales]

Yes.

But of course "It couldn't happen here"...

Jonathan

But it has. See Ricky Tomlinson and his colleagues.

[Jdsk]

It was ironic...

: - (

Jonathan

[661-Pete]

Interesting, albeit lengthy reading from Gary Younge in the Grauniad today, suggesting that every statue of a person should come down - even those of saintly figures like Mandela and Gandhi. I think few would wish to take things as far as that! Surely he doesn't wish to include classical Greek, Roman and Renaissance sculptures.

But he's right in that historical perceptions are bound to change with time - whereas the only change you get with a statue is as often as not the accumulation of pigeon poo. Memorials on the other kind, like the Cenotaph, give out a specific message which needs to be upheld.

Personal note: a small gesture, probably meaningless, but I did it anyway. Now that my alma mater, Oriel College, have refused to de-mount Mr Rhodes, I've written to them asking them to remove my name from their alumni list. I didn't give a reason. Maybe others have done likewise.

[Jdsk]

The Oriel report:
https://www.oriel-rhodes-commission.co.uk

and Cherwell's coverage:
https://cherwell.org/2021/05/29/financi ... on-report/

Jonathan

[Ben@Forest]

Interesting, albeit lengthy reading from Gary Younge in the Grauniad today, suggesting that every statue of a person should come down - even those of saintly figures like Mandela and Gandhi. I think few would wish to take things as far as that! Surely he doesn't wish to include classical Greek, Roman and Renaissance sculptures.

But he's right in that historical perceptions are bound to change with time - whereas the only change you get with a statue is as often as not the accumulation of pigeon poo. Memorials on the other kind, like the Cenotaph, give out a specific message which needs to be upheld.

Also what about statues that represent an organisation or event through the depiction of a person but are not about those people? In West Auckland there is a statue commemorating both West Auckland as winners of the first 'World Cup' and the fact that pretty well all the players were miners. In Durham there is a statue commemorating the Durham Light Infantry. These statues are of men but they aren't about identified men. Is football, or mining or soldiering really always better represented by some abstract sculpture?

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[Mike Sales]

I have just heard on the radio about the destruction of a statue of George III in New York during the American Revolution.

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[[XAP]Bob]

I have just heard on the radio about the destruction of a statue of George III in New York during the American Revolution.

george iii statue..jpg

I knew the radio was behind the times but this is surely not newsworthy any more

[Jdsk]

"BLM protesters cleared over toppling of Edward Colston statue":
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... on-statute

Jonathan

[simonineaston]

Interesting. Given that none of the four denied the offence with which they were charged and that the cost of the damage was uncontested, I'm slightly surprised ( and delighted nevertheless!) that they got off.

[Jdsk]

It is interesting. I suspect that the jury just weren't having it. But I'd like to know what evidence the Council presented: there might have been a defence based on the belief that it was offensive.

Jonathan

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
They seem to enjoy congratulating themselves on a job well done.
And also the event itself of the toppling seems to be a copycat affair.
But where will it end?

I'm not against righting wrongs even if a lot of those wrongs happened a long time before even our parents were born and further back.
But I'm not happy about the way the mob just goes around looking for something to throw a rope around.

[wheelyhappy99]

Over the past few years I've found it interesting to listen to young people and reflect on the difference in their attitudes and those prevalent when I was growing up. There will, obviously, be exceptions but generally they have no tolerance of racism, homophobia and so on which were commonly held prejudices, and along with mother in law jokes all that kept some comedians on stage.
I suspect quite a few have given up waiting for their elders and betters to make it clear some things are unacceptable in 21st century Britain. A bit like the protesters outside the US Embassy in Grosvenor Square in 1968.

[Mike Sales]

There is an interesting history of juries refusing to convict, It is called jury nullification.

Here are a couple of cases.

In 1982, during the Falklands War, the British Royal Navy sank an Argentine cruiser, the ARA General Belgrano. Three years later a civil servant (government employee) named Clive Ponting leaked two government documents concerning the sinking of the cruiser to a Member of Parliament (Tam Dalyell) and was subsequently charged with breaching section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911.[37] The prosecution in the case demanded for the jury to convict Ponting as he had clearly contravened the Act by leaking official information about the sinking of the Belgrano during the Falklands War. His main defence, that it was in the public interest that the information be made available, was rejected on the grounds that "the public interest is what the government of the day says it is", but the jury acquitted him, much to the consternation of the government. He had argued that he had acted out of "his duty to the interests of the state", but the judge had argued that civil servants owed their duty to the government.[citation needed]

In 2021, a noteworthy case of jury nullification took place when a six activists associated with the environmental protest organisation Extinction Rebellion were placed on trial for causing criminal damage to the UK Headquarters of multinational oil company Royal Dutch Shell. Though the judge instructed the jury that there was 'no defence in law' for the protestors' actions, which according to the prosecutor had caused 'significant damage' to the building,[38] the activists were acquitted by the jury.[39]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_null ... _slave_law

Fugitive slave law

Jury nullification was practised in the 1850s to protest the federal Fugitive Slave Act, which was part of the Compromise of 1850. The Act had been passed to mollify the slave owners from the South, who were otherwise threatening to secede from the Union. Across the North, local juries acquitted men accused of violating the law.

Secretary of State Daniel Webster was a key supporter of the law as expressed in his famous "Seventh of March" speech. He wanted high-profile convictions, but the jury nullifications ruined his presidential aspirations and his last-ditch efforts to find a compromise between North and South. Webster led the prosecution when defendants were accused of rescuing Shadrach Minkins in 1851 from Boston officials who intended to return Minkins to his owner; the juries convicted none of the men. Webster tried to enforce a law that was extremely unpopular in the North, and his Whig Party passed over him again when they chose a presidential nominee in 1852.[44]

[pwa]

I am very happy that the folk charged with criminal damage have been found not guilty by a jury. This does not mean that any other statue can be toppled with impunity. It does mean that this particular statue of someone who made his living as a slave trader was fair game because it was offensive to people who value human dignity, and its continued presence on a pedestal was a provocation and an act of negligence. I know others will say that this gives a green light for attacks on statues of Churchill and others, but it doesn't. The verdict in this case was about one particular statue of one particularly nasty individual, and the defence centred around that. Other statues of other figures will not necessarily be seen as fair game by juries.

Colston's paint daubed statue should now go to a major museum to be displayed, flat on the ground, as an artefact to do with changing attitudes around the subject of empire, race and the telling of history. At last this statue has the opportunity to do something useful.

[irc]

Interesting, albeit lengthy reading from Gary Younge in the Grauniad today, suggesting that every statue of a person should come down -

Idiot. You mean like the Tailiban blowing up sculptures. Or this kind of thing needs to come down?