should politics be banned on the forum?

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Psamathe
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by Psamathe »

For me that is at the heart of the issue - tolerating people who do not agree with your own views and being able to disagree with them without throwing toys out of the pram. Personal thought on said thread is that all views expressed are valid and reasonable. I consider the starting point of that thread was political (but to clarify further would just bring that thread into this thread).

An important aspect of life is tolerance. If people can't tolerate the views of others then don't read the political threads (or the QR levers threads). I fail to understand participating in political discussions and then getting upset and stomping off when a view you don't agree with is expressed. We do need to be tolerant of views that differ from our own (or just create and remain in our own private "perfect world" bubble).

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 10:26am IMO, this is an example of one of my regular themes:-

It's easy to be misunderstood on an internet forum for various reasons eg there's not the immediate feedback of face-to-face conversation. One important thing is how you deal with that. IMO, the best way is to reflect to see why the message was misinterpreted and try to clarify it. Blaming others is not helpful. Obviously, if you've not been misunderstood and the replies express disagreement, then either justify what you wrote or accept the correction.
Also to appreciate that different things touch different nerves in different people. As others have said, expressing sympathy is one thing but re-writing views some find distasteful can touch the nerves of some (myself included).

Life spills into different areas and e.g. in relation to the thread that has upset some, I turn on TV and am still getting that sainthood and ongoing "what more honours can we heap on ..." poured out. And when that starts somewhere that you can reply, expect people who don't agree to reply. The said thread (from the 1st post) merged several very different aspects - the horrendous murder, sympathy for the victims family/friends and the victims political behaviour, so people responded to those different aspects.

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mjr
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by mjr »

Oldjohnw wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 2:45am I mentioned the fact that he was an RC, as has every news bulletin and comment in the country. That he was a politician with certain views was a simple political fact.
However, your interpretation of those views is not.
His profession could not be left out. Nor the simple fact that he never sought office. And why on earth do I need to have known all about the man before simply acknowledging his murder?
You don't, nor did I suggest it. It wasn't the acknowledgement itself that was the problem.
That is quite different to bringing in religion and politics into something. Others did all of that.
No no no, it was there from the opening post.
But hey, I have learned my lesson. Where these pages go now is somewhere I don’t want to be, if you can’t even express human sympathy without people rolling in on you. I have seen something truly ugly. I am now leaving this forum. It’s a sad day when you have to agree with someone’s politics before you can express human sympathy and outrage against a heinous crime.
It wasn't the human sympathy that triggered the response. I'm sad to say it, as I feel you have often added useful info to discussions, but if you won't accept that it contained political points, it may be better if you left The Tea Room.

Returning to the thread topic, such "is this political or not?" posts would be a big problem with banning politics. It would be a brave moderator who removed an RIP post.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by ncutler »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 11:18am I cannot resist this

A requiescat in pace post
And I cannot resist it either. As a "brave moderator" I have removed the original post.
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mjr
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by mjr »

ncutler wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 11:34am
thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 11:18am I cannot resist this

A requiescat in pace post
And I cannot resist it either. As a "brave moderator" I have removed the original post.
Still looks to be there to me: viewtopic.php?p=1647068#p1647068
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Psamathe
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 11:43am
ncutler wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 11:34am
thirdcrank wrote: 21 Oct 2021, 11:18am I cannot resist this

A requiescat in pace post
And I cannot resist it either. As a "brave moderator" I have removed the original post.
Still looks to be there to me: viewtopic.php?p=1647068#p1647068
I checked and found the same but then realised the removed post was thirdcrank's post that was quoted (or I assume so as that post has gone).

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Hellhound
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by Hellhound »

Two members quitting the Forum over something as trivial as an opinion they do not agree with.That is very grown up.
If you don't want to argue/debate a subject,in this case Politics,then don't.To call for something to be banned just because it offends you is not only childish but selfish.
I've not read all the locked Political threads but I see nothing other than banter on those that I have.I hear and engage in far worse conversations almost daily especially when Politics is involved!
It has been mentioned that someone might adopt a persona and post things here they wouldn't say in a 'real' conversation.I would argue it's the other way around.On Forums and (especially)Social Media I firmly believe some people act and say what they think others want to hear or read to fit in with what is deemed to be 'acceptable'.
Psamathe
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by Psamathe »

Long story but seems relevant:
When I moved to France, my French somewhat limited and no Brits in the area (I'd vowed never to speak English anyway) and I was invited out to a diner party on the evening the French European Constitution Referendum that resulted "No". About 8 people and before dinner sitting chatting the arguments started and ... wow ... I was trying to remember the emergency number for the pompiers as I thought somebody was going to get badly injured; but then I decided even with limited French I'd join in anyway. Never really seen arguments like it, never at a dinner party. Then host said dinner was ready and everybody moved to the dinner table all best of friends, arguments over. No grumbles, like it was just instantly switched off.

And I learnt or had reinforced that just because you disagree with somebody (even strongly) does not mean you can't be friends and agree on lots of other things. It's alright to disagree, alright to argue points, alright to get emotional - just remember that it's over one issue and there are loads of other issues you agree on. And sometimes somebody expressing reasons for the views they hold will cause offence in others - it's called life and if you let every little offence like that cause you major grief then it's your loss. It's only one issue and it's only people saying/explaining why they hold the views they hold.

One of my French friends has some views I find quite offensive on one current issue, but we are still good friends, still chat, still discuss the issue we strongly disagree on as well as loads of other things. Disagreeing is or should be not a problem.

On forums, there is generally not "thread ownership" in that if you start a thread that thread goes where contributors take it, OP does not "own it" so I can't appreciate the idea that a thread is started and then limited to a tone the OP intended and anybody breaking that tone (even for deeply held opinions) is crossing some hidden implied line.

Ian
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by millimole »


Psamathe wrote:... I thought somebody was going to get badly injured; but then I decided even with limited French I'd join in anyway. Never really seen arguments like it, never at a dinner party. Then host said dinner was ready and everybody moved to the dinner table all best of friends, arguments over. No grumbles, like it was just instantly switched off.

And I learnt or had reinforced that just because you disagree with somebody (even strongly) does not mean you can't be friends and agree on lots of other things. It's alright to disagree, alright to argue points, alright to get emotional - just remember that it's over one issue and there are loads of other issues you agree on. people saying/explaining why they hold the views they hold.

One of my French friends has some views I find quite offensive on one current issue, but we are still good friends, still chat, still discuss the issue we strongly disagree on as well as loads of other things.. . Disagreeing is or should be not a problem..

Ian
(Sorry if snipping your post loses any of its meaning- no offence intended)

This was something that I learned very quickly once I was able to do more than just 'get by' in French.
There is a very Gallic approach to robust debating. The British will take everything to heart and take it personally, but the French enjoy the debate for the sake of debating and treat the argument as a 'sport' without winners or losers. As you say, you can be diametrically opposed to someone in their views, but still enjoy a meal or a drink with them and it won't affect your relationship.
It's all very refreshing.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
thirdcrank
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by thirdcrank »

As a long-standing forum member (with an embarrassingly high post count) I've dropped off the back a few times, although never because somebody rattled me; it's been a feeling of wasting too much precious time. Changing the metaphor, I'd advise against flouncing off. First, because in most cases, nobody is all that bothered and any unmoderated trolls etc will just add another billy goat to their score.

Having said that, I don't know if there's a protocol for leaving short of a public announcement, so that well wishers are not concerned.

I suspect that if you burn your boats, it's a lot harder to row back.
Bonzo Banana
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by Bonzo Banana »

PhilD28 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 3:49pm Non political eh, source Cycling UK website:

“Campaigning for Cyclists
Then

Campaigning has been in our DNA from the start. It had to be, bearing in mind the amount of anti-cycling sentiment that has existed ever since the first boneshakers appeared on roads in 1867.

One of the greatest victories in CTC’s history came in 1888, when a skilfully-waged campaign led to the Local Government Act recognising cycles as ‘carriages’ with the right to use roads for the first time – legislation so important, it was dubbed the ‘Cyclists’ Magna Carta’.

Until then, downtrodden cyclists had suffered under unreasonable bylaws that differed from one local authority to the next. For example, in Southampton cyclists were “compelled to dismount if signalled by a horse rider or carriage driver”.

That all changed after Parliament agreed a motion proposed by Sir John Dorington, MP for Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, on behalf of CTC. Sir John was a CTC member and his club colleagues bombarded MPs with letters calling for their support.

Now

With your help, we’ve been lobbying MPs ever since that landmark 1888 Act – never more so than last year, when politicians of all major parties debated funding for cycling at Westminster Hall.

Cycling UK vigorously campaigned for some of the Government’s vast £15billion roads budget over the next five years to be reallocated to CWIS (Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy), which was set to receive a derisory £300million.

Ahead of the Westminster Hall debate, Cycling UK set up an online action enabling members to email their local MP to persuade them to attend and speak up in support of investment for cycling. We also provided MPs with a briefing document and spoke to them on the day.

With your help, we will continue to campaign for at least £10 per head per year to be invested in cycling
Obviously the point was non-partisan towards the different parties not political with regard campaigning for cycling. If you have a animal rights charity they would be actively political with regard improved welfare for animals but they may not actively support one political party in favour of another mainstream party as that would alienate those who want improved animal welfare but are in the opposite party and it would be counter-productive. I really didn't think this would need explaining.
gbnz
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by gbnz »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Oct 2021, 11:18am it's been a feeling of wasting too much precious time.
+ 1. I haven't as many posts, but have occasionally had a "NO CTC" sticker on the laptop :wink:

But it's too easy to log on between a morning at the gym & afternoon on the bike. Feels more relevant than a review of the Guardian. Especially when a quick review of weather is needed, pre autumn ride (Nb. Not too bad, but 17mph head wind :( )
PhilD28
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by PhilD28 »

Bonzo Banana wrote: 23 Oct 2021, 1:22pm
PhilD28 wrote: 18 Oct 2021, 3:49pm Non political eh, source Cycling UK website:

“Campaigning for Cyclists
Then

Campaigning has been in our DNA from the start. It had to be, bearing in mind the amount of anti-cycling sentiment that has existed ever since the first boneshakers appeared on roads in 1867.

One of the greatest victories in CTC’s history came in 1888, when a skilfully-waged campaign led to the Local Government Act recognising cycles as ‘carriages’ with the right to use roads for the first time – legislation so important, it was dubbed the ‘Cyclists’ Magna Carta’.

Until then, downtrodden cyclists had suffered under unreasonable bylaws that differed from one local authority to the next. For example, in Southampton cyclists were “compelled to dismount if signalled by a horse rider or carriage driver”.

That all changed after Parliament agreed a motion proposed by Sir John Dorington, MP for Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, on behalf of CTC. Sir John was a CTC member and his club colleagues bombarded MPs with letters calling for their support.

Now

With your help, we’ve been lobbying MPs ever since that landmark 1888 Act – never more so than last year, when politicians of all major parties debated funding for cycling at Westminster Hall.

Cycling UK vigorously campaigned for some of the Government’s vast £15billion roads budget over the next five years to be reallocated to CWIS (Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy), which was set to receive a derisory £300million.

Ahead of the Westminster Hall debate, Cycling UK set up an online action enabling members to email their local MP to persuade them to attend and speak up in support of investment for cycling. We also provided MPs with a briefing document and spoke to them on the day.

With your help, we will continue to campaign for at least £10 per head per year to be invested in cycling
Obviously the point was non-partisan towards the different parties not political with regard campaigning for cycling. If you have a animal rights charity they would be actively political with regard improved welfare for animals but they may not actively support one political party in favour of another mainstream party as that would alienate those who want improved animal welfare but are in the opposite party and it would be counter-productive. I really didn't think this would need explaining.
the question I was attempting to answer was about whether Politics should be banned from the forum.

My whole point is that politics is clearly an important part of the past and current role of what is now cycling UK as demonstrated from the peice lifted straight from CUK website. Ignore politics and risk it biting you.

And in any case, as has been pointed out neumerous times it is easy for someone who doesn't want to participate in political discussion to avoid it by not responding within those threads.
I've made the point before, many would ban cyclists from the roads if they could because they don't like cyclists and don't wish to do it themselves, it appears that this is the case with political threads here.
cycle tramp
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by cycle tramp »

Syd wrote: 20 Oct 2021, 7:51pm [moderated]

Politics should, and must, be banned across the forum.

This forum is quickly turning into a nasty place to be and I will no longer be posting on, or visiting, this forum hereafter.

So long and thanks for all the fish.
Gosh no! I have been mistaken in some of my political beliefs and no doubt will be wrong again in the future. Its only through testing them through measured debate that I find that either they are correct or, if not, better political beliefs.
The only issue is that if someone disputes my political beliefs in favour of their own, is that I view it as some sort of personal attack rather than a testing of ideas. If I take the view that anyone questioning or attacking my political point of view is not attacking me personally but rather exercising the right to test them, then no-one takes offence :-)
(There may well follow some video clips of that nice Alan Moore speaking about anarchism or some quotes from the ever charming Aleister Crowley) :D
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cycle tramp
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Re: should politics be banned on the forum?

Post by cycle tramp »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Oct 2021, 11:18am As a long-standing forum member (with an embarrassingly high post count) I've dropped off the back a few times, although never because somebody rattled me; it's been a feeling of wasting too much precious time.
Could there be another thread on this forum - how to reduce your time spent on this forum? People could type in with things they like to do when they are away from this forum. Sometimes I like to go for a cycle ride.
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
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