What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

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Mike Sales
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What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by Mike Sales »

Start the Week on Radio 4 now, is a fascinating examination and development of the novel Civilisations by Laurent Binet.
The book is a counterfactual history prompted by Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000v891
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Psamathe
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by Psamathe »

It was an interesting program. I found the input from the other two guests more interesting than Laurent Binet's (the author) input.

Ian
Jdsk
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks for the heads-up, Mike.

Jonathan
markjohnobrien
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by markjohnobrien »

There was an interesting review in the Sunday Times yesterday.

They said the more historical knowledge you have, the greater the enjoyment of the book although they called the author a bit of a show off.

But, still, thanks for the link: I’ll listen and decide whether to buy the book.
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ANTONISH
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by ANTONISH »

We wouldn't have wheels.
Mike Sales
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by Mike Sales »

ANTONISH wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:21am We wouldn't have wheels.
Seriously?
It's the same the whole world over
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It's the rich what gets the pleasure
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Psamathe
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by Psamathe »

ANTONISH wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:21am We wouldn't have wheels.
I thought the wheel was invented in Western Asia 4000 BC'ish.

Ian
markjohnobrien
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by markjohnobrien »

Antonish is correct in one sense and wrong in another.

While the Inca’s understood the concept of the wheel, they never used them for transport ever which is amazing as all other major civilisations (Hittite; Greek; Roman; later Roman (Byzantine); Persian, etc, used the wheel extensively).

So, it is quite plausible that if they did conquer Europe, they’d have been sniffy about the wheel and forbade its use. Although the whole premise of the book is using European technologies against Europe.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by Tangled Metal »

All civilisations? Apart from Persian that list is very European focused. Anyone know about the Indus civilization or that very early one in Turkey. What about African civilisations? Weren't there African civilisations too. Iirc there was an advanced one in Zimbabwe but being European i never got taught about them. I got bought a book on the greatest archaeological discoveries around the world and seem to recall a greater Zimbabwe culture with many sites indicating a great civilisation existed.

I just winner whether use of the wheel by ancient cultures is simply about need. Where you don't need the wheel you don't see it in the archaeological record. Having said that if a non wheel using civilisation moved or expanded to where the wheel is useful or needed then you simply can't extrapolate across to the new situation and say there would not be the wheel. Humans simply innovate to a need based on what's around them. That's kind of universal is I'd have thought.
markjohnobrien
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by markjohnobrien »

Tangled Metal wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 1:13pm All civilisations? Apart from Persian that list is very European focused. Anyone know about the Indus civilization or that very early one in Turkey. What about African civilisations? Weren't there African civilisations too. Iirc there was an advanced one in Zimbabwe but being European i never got taught about them. I got bought a book on the greatest archaeological discoveries around the world and seem to recall a greater Zimbabwe culture with many sites indicating a great civilisation existed.

I just winner whether use of the wheel by ancient cultures is simply about need. Where you don't need the wheel you don't see it in the archaeological record. Having said that if a non wheel using civilisation moved or expanded to where the wheel is useful or needed then you simply can't extrapolate across to the new situation and say there would not be the wheel. Humans simply innovate to a need based on what's around them. That's kind of universal is I'd have thought.
Errr - the very early one in Turkey I’ve already mentioned as it was Hittite.
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markjohnobrien
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by markjohnobrien »

And the Byzantine empire certainly had strong non-European elements as it was mainly based in the east (apart from a few bits in the West which were lost after Justinian’s time in the late 500’s), wholly covered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), and went as far as Armenia which is certainly not European.

Basil the Bulgar slayers exploits didn’t change the eastern focus of this empire.
Last edited by markjohnobrien on 20 Apr 2021, 1:34pm, edited 2 times in total.
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markjohnobrien
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by markjohnobrien »

Africa is a different kettle of fish as it nugatory advanced empires and the major one was in Zimbabwe (although it was built and sustained by slavery).

Aztecs were a blight on civilisation due to their obsessive penchant for human sacrifice - it wasn’t just a “quirk”, as the whole society, religion, and empire was based upon it.
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markjohnobrien
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by markjohnobrien »

Tangled Metal wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 1:13pm All civilisations? Apart from Persian that list is very European focused. Anyone know about the Indus civilization or that very early one in Turkey. What about African civilisations? Weren't there African civilisations too. Iirc there was an advanced one in Zimbabwe but being European i never got taught about them. I got bought a book on the greatest archaeological discoveries around the world and seem to recall a greater Zimbabwe culture with many sites indicating a great civilisation existed.

I just winner whether use of the wheel by ancient cultures is simply about need. Where you don't need the wheel you don't see it in the archaeological record. Having said that if a non wheel using civilisation moved or expanded to where the wheel is useful or needed then you simply can't extrapolate across to the new situation and say there would not be the wheel. Humans simply innovate to a need based on what's around them. That's kind of universal is I'd have thought.
Muslim Caliphate based in Baghdad, very sophisticated and wealthy civilisation, and non-European, used the wheel extensively.
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Mike Sales
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Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by Mike Sales »

markjohnobrien wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 1:24pm Africa is a different kettle of fish as it nugatory advanced empires and the major one was in Zimbabwe (although it was built and sustained by slavery).

Aztecs were a blight on civilisation due to their obsessive penchant for human sacrifice - it wasn’t just a “quirk”, as the whole society, religion, and empire was based upon it.
You should read Diamond's book. (Guns, Germs and Steel).
It is not about which civilisations were morally superior, but about why some succeeded, to the point of colonising much of the world, and others did not.
Binet's novel is a counterfactual about how things might have turned out differently.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
markjohnobrien
Posts: 1037
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: What if the Incas had colonised Europe?

Post by markjohnobrien »

Mike Sales wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 1:31pm
markjohnobrien wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 1:24pm Africa is a different kettle of fish as it nugatory advanced empires and the major one was in Zimbabwe (although it was built and sustained by slavery).

Aztecs were a blight on civilisation due to their obsessive penchant for human sacrifice - it wasn’t just a “quirk”, as the whole society, religion, and empire was based upon it.
You should read Diamond's book. (Guns, Germs and Steel).
It is not about which civilisations were morally superior, but about why some succeeded, to the point of colonising much of the world, and others did not.
Binet's novel is a counterfactual about how things might have turned out differently.
Yes, I intend to read both books.
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