Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

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francovendee
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by francovendee »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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al_yrpal
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by al_yrpal »

I blame to Building Research Establishment fair and square. This and other cladding disasters should never have happened.

Al
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Mike Sales
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by Mike Sales »

al_yrpal wrote: 30 Apr 2021, 9:55am I blame to Building Research Establishment fair and square. This and other cladding disasters should never have happened.

Al
Do not forget the lies consciously told by the cladding manufacturers.
Staff at Kingspan, a company that made some of the combustible material used on Grenfell tower, joked in 2016 that claims about how safe the product was were “all lies” and it should be scrapped.

Text messages sent the year before the June 2017 disaster, which claimed 72 lives, suggested the employees believed the company was lying to the market about the fire performance of the “<i>[inappropriate word removed]</i> product” but one of them appeared to think that was funny, the public inquiry heard.

The plastic foam Kooltherm K15 insulation had failed several full-scale fire tests but was being sold on high-rise buildings on the basis of tests that related to the spread of flames across its foil surface rather than the whole material, and on an earlier full-scale test of a different, less combustible version of the product.

In a November 2016 text chat Peter Moss, a member of the firm’s technical team, asked his colleague Arron Chalmers, about the fire performance of the foam insulation, which was marketed as having a class-0 rating – the safest for spread of flames across the surface of a product.


After telling Moss that it was class 0, Chalmers added: “Doesn’t actually get class 0 when we test the whole product tho. LOL.”

Moss replied: “WHAT. We lied? Honest opinion now.”

Chalmers said: “Yeahhhh. Tested K15 as a whole – got class 1 [a worse performance]. Whey. Lol.”

Moss’s response was: “<i>[inappropriate word removed]</i> product. Scrap it.”

Chalmers then explained that it was “worded in such a way that it ‘implies’ the facing can give you class 0 … But don’t tell anyone that.”

Moss then quoted the Kingspan marketing literature: “Kingspan Kooltherm K15 is class 0 (non combustible).”

Chalmers said: “All lies mate … Alls we do is lie in here”

Adrian Pargeter, Kingspan’s director of technical and marketing, was asked about the exchange by counsel to the inquiry Richard Millett QC, who suggested it was “a pithy summary of Kingspan’s culture at the time”. Pargeter said: “I don’t believe that’s true at all.”

Millett asked: “Do you accept that a culture of lying about the fire safety of products is particularly serious, because you’re taking risks with people’s lives?”

“I don’t believe that we are lying,” Pargeter replied. “I can’t explain why they’re describing it as such in that way between the two of them.”

Earlier that year during an email discussion about the classification of the product, Chalmers also said: “Yeah, does seem a bit of a cheat though doesn’t it claiming class 0 for just a facer test, when as you said it’s meant to be product as placed on the market.”

At that point a Kingspan executive on the thread interjected and said: “Perhaps it would be better if you had a meeting to discuss this matter verbally.”

Pargeter said this was because the email chain was getting long. “I don’t think it was a cheat; it was just a literal interpretation of [the building regulations].”

“It’s cheating,” said Millett. “And it’s cheating because you know very well that’s not what the people who put together [the building regulations] meant, but you were taking advantage of a clever-clogs reading of it to try to sell product.”

“I don’t think it was a clever-clogs reading of it,” said Pargeter. “It was how it was written.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... quiry-told



It has been known since 2018 that Celotex used additional fire-resisting boards in its official large-scale test in May 2014, which were not declared in the report or subsequent marketing of the RS5000 product that was advertised as “suitable for use” on high-rise buildings.

But today Jonathan Roper, former product manager, alleged that this was done with the full knowledge and approval of Celotex’s senior management.

He repeatedly agreed that the company’s actions were “deliberately misleading and dishonest” and said he had been made to “lie for commercial gain”.
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/ne ... fell-68619

Edited for duplication and clarity.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 30 Apr 2021, 4:46pm, edited 1 time in total.
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merseymouth
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by merseymouth »

Afternoon, I still don't like the idea of the tax-payer picking up the tab for issues caused by those who must surely have known better? After all they like to be thought of as "Experts"?
Poor design, poor testing, poor installation, greed all would appear to be at the root cause of this tragedy!
We should have had a housing version of Ralph Nader? Or will the enquiry reveal that the appropriate warnings were given, but ignored???
Joe Public shouldn't have to carry the can! MM
Psamathe
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by Psamathe »

merseymouth wrote: 30 Apr 2021, 4:28pm Afternoon, I still don't like the idea of the tax-payer picking up the tab for issues caused by those who must surely have known better? After all they like to be thought of as "Experts"?
Poor design, poor testing, poor installation, greed all would appear to be at the root cause of this tragedy!
...
I think the inquiry first has to identify where failures happened and those responsible for the failures need to foot the bills for rectification works. Those organisations/companies were paid for their expertise and they failed but still took the money. Making assumptions about where the faults happened, it seems wrong that the Government basically uses taxpayers money to underwrite incompetence in private business which happily took payment for professional services and works.

Ian
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by Vorpal »

More than 100 firefighters have tackled a blaze that ripped through a 19-storey London tower covered in flammable cladding.

The London Fire Brigade (LFB) was called to the New Providence Wharf development, near Canary Wharf, on Friday morning.

It said 125 firefighters and 20 engines were at the scene of the fire, which engulfed three floors.

London Ambulance Service said a “number of people” have been treated, though the extent of their injuries is not yet known.

Approximately 22% of the building’s facade features ACM PE cladding panels, which were found to be a key factor in the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017.
https://www.essexlive.news/news/uk-worl ... ll-5386593
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/new- ... 33833.html
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thirdcrank
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by thirdcrank »

Some plain talking from a barrister on behalf of some of the victims

Grenfell Tower inquiry: Reckless firms showed neglect - lawyer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58547901
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simonineaston
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by simonineaston »

Well said, that woman.
S
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reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by reohn2 »

thirdcrank wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 5:17pm Some plain talking from a barrister on behalf of some of the victims

Grenfell Tower inquiry: Reckless firms showed neglect - lawyer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58547901
Ain't that the truth,something anyone with a working brain cell knew all along :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by Bonefishblues »

Did others watch the 'Minute by Minute' programme at the end of last week? Residents did their part, raised the right issues, but were completely ignored. It was chilling television.
reohn2
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by reohn2 »

Bonefishblues wrote: 13 Sep 2021, 5:47pm Did others watch the 'Minute by Minute' programme at the end of last week? Residents did their part, raised the right issues, but were completely ignored. It was chilling television.
I didn't,but I did know the residents swam continually against an overwhelming tide of corruption,safety dodging and being continually ignored when they raised valid safety concerns! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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slowster
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by slowster »

The BBC's running series of podcasts produced by Kate Lamble are well worth listening to (no need to listen to them all or to listen to them starting from the first podcast - just dipping in and listening to the odd one or two is worthwhile):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/p066rd9t

The podcasts are a summary of each week's hearings, and consist mainly of audio excerpts from the hearings, which Kate Lamble introduces and sets into useful context, including comparing where the evidence or opinion of a witness conflicts with that of a previous witness, as well as highlighting differences of opinion between some of the expert witnesses.
thirdcrank
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by thirdcrank »

I fear that is is yet another case where Cap'n Bob's long shadow will fall. Bearing in mind the problems of covid, the inquiry seems to have made progress and the final report may not be far off, except for so-called "Maxwellisation" which means - unless something has changed - that anybody criticised in the report gets to see it before publication and with it an opportunity to rebut the criticisms. All very fair to those criticised but it slows publication of the final report.

Cap'n Bob:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell

Maxwellisation
The process takes its name from the publisher Robert Maxwell. In 1969, Maxwell was criticised in a report by the Department of Trade and Industry as "unfit to hold the stewardship of a public company"
A remarkably accurate finding IMO
official policy was altered to ensure prior notice would be given of critical findings.
And AIUI, a second go at influencing the report and, incidentally, kicking it further down the path.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwellisation
pwa
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by pwa »

The really shocking thing for me has been that it has been common practice, up and until Grenfell, for tower blocks to be clad in combustible materials. I had done some work in landscaping, working on a construction site alongside the construction trades, and it had been my impression that everything was done in strict accordance with tight regulations. I found that a stifling way to work but also reassuring. What I hadn't realised was that in spite of all the red tape and paperwork, and all the regulations, it was still possible to house human beings several stories above ground level without attending to the obvious need for non-combustible materials.
Bonefishblues
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Re: Tower Block Disaster - Grenfell

Post by Bonefishblues »

...whilst systemically lying and cheating 'the system' (to dignify it with a term it clearly doesn't deserve) to present them as safe and compliant.
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