Farce boek, whotsapp: Why, why not?

[Psamathe]

Well for a start the phone manufacturer,network provider,whoever owns the satellites(US Govt?).It's the same with built in Satnavs in vehicles.Whether you're using it or not it's tracking where the vehicle is/has been.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Assuming your allegations are correct (though I've disabled things like Apple tracking), do the US Government or phone manufacturers sell or leak your personal details and details of your contacts to 3rd parties and hackers?

Collecting data costs money so companies have to be able to see a return on those costs and where there is not the return they wont bother - they are interested in profit not knowing details about you and incurring the costs that entails.

Ian

I have no idea and TBH don't really think about it or care.They aren't really allegations they're well known facts!
All text messages for instance are stored and have been for years.
As for the costs are there any?Once a program is set up,on your phone network for example,the computer does the rest.
These things are beyond the average person but easy enough for Tech giants etc.
We've had conversations at work/home then gone on Facebook etc and there's a product on your feed that you've talked about.It's everywhere.If you have a Smartphone you are not alone :wink:
Wasn't there a scandal a few years ago about Samsung Smart TVs watching households through the built in camera?
I'm writing this on my laptop.For all I know someone could be watching me through it's webcam!?
Didn't they catch Gary Glitter because he had stuff on his PC that he had 'deleted' but it was stored deep in the HD?
It's been going on for years the only way to be sure you are really 'anonymous' is to have no electronic devices whatsover.

Re: "They aren't really allegations they're well known facts!". My phone gives me the option to disable and mask tracking by phone manufacturer. Any sources to prove that disable, blocking and masking don't work?

Re: Costs: Significant costs: Communications - data is not free. Storage - tracking everybody generates a lot of data that requires data centres which cost, plus software plus management, etc.

Re: Garry Glitter: Stuff stored and later recovered by Police on your local hard disk drive is very different from being tracked by all and sundry.

Re: the only way to be sure you are really 'anonymous' is to have no electronic devices whatsover - actually there are other ways e.g. burner devices or SIM cards not registered to you. Some countries take steps to avoid t but others it's not too difficult. So they might be tracking the phone you have and what is being done on that phone but they are not able to attribute that information to you.

But it comes down to a question of degree and choice. You chose the level you are happy at. Personally I'm not happy about my personal details being sold to unknown 3rd parties for their profitable activities or passed to hackers (which is unlikely to be in my interest) - so I avoid my details being passed to them through the likes of Zukkenbery. I do use the internet but much of what I do is under false IDs or traceable e-mails (so if they do end up in the wrong hands I know who to take it up with and can immediately close it down).

If you are worried about somebody watching you typing through your webcam then maybe take a bit more trouble about security on your laptop. Or ask yourself why would somebody bother spending their time watching you - what do they get out of the effort & time?

Ian

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Signal like other stuff what's app also is in encrypted end to end?
and I'm sure also you can use WhatsApp and Facebook et cetera without checking the box for your contacts.
I have all those accounts but no one ever messages me at all, because I didn't tick the box, also I'm not using my real name either!

Most Facebook and media users want to be noticed so they tic the box Use their real name and also their photo.

[Jdsk]

Signal like other stuff what's app also is in encrypted end to end?

Have you had a chance to read the articles on their approaches to privacy? They're very different.

Jonathan

[Ride-sleep-repeat]

Re: "They aren't really allegations they're well known facts!". My phone gives me the option to disable and mask tracking by phone manufacturer. Any sources to prove that disable, blocking and masking don't work?

If you are worried about somebody watching you typing through your webcam then maybe take a bit more trouble about security on your laptop. Or ask yourself why would somebody bother spending their time watching you - what do they get out of the effort & time?

Point 1.
Google 'Who is tracking your Smartphone' and you will find many hours of information to wade through.Apparently your phone is still being tracked when turned off!Not surprising at all really.You'd have to be really naive to think that merely turning off tracking by the manufacturer will actually render your phone invisible!
Point 2.
I'm not worried about somebody watching me through my laptop,as I said I don't really think about it or care,I was just using that as another example.

Older phones,ie 'burner phones'(you obviously watch Line of Duty) are used by naughty types because once switched off the traceability stops until it is switched back on.The SIM still stores info.

Did you know that a SD card in a camera stores ALL photos?Even if you delete them they are still stored.I found this out when I accidentally formatted a card with over 1500 photos on it.I just put it down to experience but on chatting with a mate months later he recommended some software to download to recover the images.I did and it recovered every single photo I'd ever taken and deleted.There were over 2000 stored yet once 'formatted' the card had shown to be 'empty'.So if a card has a capacity of say 4500 images and you have taken 2000 it will show space for 2500 more then you format it and delete 2000 number goes back up to 4500.So you once again have space for 4500 but the 2000 you deleted are still 'there'.Where does the card store these?

[Psamathe]

Re: "They aren't really allegations they're well known facts!". My phone gives me the option to disable and mask tracking by phone manufacturer. Any sources to prove that disable, blocking and masking don't work?

If you are worried about somebody watching you typing through your webcam then maybe take a bit more trouble about security on your laptop. Or ask yourself why would somebody bother spending their time watching you - what do they get out of the effort & time?

Point 1.
Google 'Who is tracking your Smartphone' and you will find many hours of information to wade through.Apparently your phone is still being tracked when turned off!Not surprising at all really.You'd have to be really naive to think that merely turning off tracking by the manufacturer will actually render your phone invisible!

Turning off tracking and being invisible are very different things. We were talking about manufacturers tracking you not about being "invisible".

Older phones,ie 'burner phones'(you obviously watch Line of Duty) are used by naughty types because once switched off the traceability stops until it is switched back on.The SIM still stores info.

Burner phones are used by many different people. I tend to use one (or at least SIMs not registered to me) when travelling (can cause minimal grief topping-up but avoid the network stores and not a massive issue).

Did you know that a SD card in a camera stores ALL photos?Even if you delete them they are still stored.

As you mentioned with Garry Glitter, it depends on how you delete stuff, overwrite stuff, etc. SD cards do not have unlimited storage so fill a 64GB card with 64GB new photos and the previous images will have been obliterated. But it is local storage NOT being tracked by other corporations for their profits. You own and hold the SD card and can destroy it if you want and the information on it is only local to you.

In one of my jobs we periodically had to recover deleted data from storage cards used by drug dealers (when requested by the Police). It was in the early days of EPROM and Flash storage and once accused arrested Police would notice them frantically pressing buttons on their device and recover it too late and we'd be asked to recover all the data.

Ian

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Re: "They aren't really allegations they're well known facts!". My phone gives me the option to disable and mask tracking by phone manufacturer. Any sources to prove that disable, blocking and masking don't work?

If you are worried about somebody watching you typing through your webcam then maybe take a bit more trouble about security on your laptop. Or ask yourself why would somebody bother spending their time watching you - what do they get out of the effort & time?

Point 1.
Google 'Who is tracking your Smartphone' and you will find many hours of information to wade through.Apparently your phone is still being tracked when turned off!Not surprising at all really.You'd have to be really naive to think that merely turning off tracking by the manufacturer will actually render your phone invisible!
Point 2.
I'm not worried about somebody watching me through my laptop,as I said I don't really think about it or care,I was just using that as another example.

Older phones,ie 'burner phones'(you obviously watch Line of Duty) are used by naughty types because once switched off the traceability stops until it is switched back on.The SIM still stores info.

Did you know that a SD card in a camera stores ALL photos?Even if you delete them they are still stored.I found this out when I accidentally formatted a card with over 1500 photos on it.I just put it down to experience but on chatting with a mate months later he recommended some software to download to recover the images.I did and it recovered every single photo I'd ever taken and deleted.There were over 2000 stored yet once 'formatted' the card had shown to be 'empty'.So if a card has a capacity of say 4500 images and you have taken 2000 it will show space for 2500 more then you format it and delete 2000 number goes back up to 4500.So you once again have space for 4500 but the 2000 you deleted are still 'there'.Where does the card store these?

Wiping software has been around for decades. Which can includes overwriting Military style of HD free space.
Overwriting with new photos will render old stuff wiped if you fill it up (there may be thumbnails, but its not reliable) ?
Recovery software has also been around for decades, but it might only recover low res thumbnails, as overwriting especially on hard disc can be random.

Another old post (maybe someone can dig it up?) discusses turning off phone to prevent tracking, much paranoia.......................

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
A bit of tape over the web cam on your device

[Ride-sleep-repeat]

Turning off tracking and being invisible are very different things. We were talking about manufacturers tracking you not about being "invisible".

Sorry but I was under the impression we were talking about your phone being tracked full stop?Regardless of what you do on your phone settings it is still tracked.As I said do some research.It will keep you busy for hours.Quite interesting too.

SD cards do not have unlimited storage so fill a 64GB card with 64GB new photos and the previous images will have been obliterated. But it is local storage NOT being tracked by other corporations for their profits. You own and hold the SD card and can destroy it if you want and the information on it is only local to you.

I know it's local storage.Again I was using it as an example of how easy it is.I possibly wasn't clear enough.A bit of a side note if you will.

I can only comment on my experience and the photos were there.There are numerous photo recovery programs available.The images are still there even when the card shows whatever GB it can store is still available.

[RickH]

When is your phone off?

When you press the power button & the screen goes blank it is not off it is merely in a lower power mode with some functionality switched off, the screen being the most obvious one.

If you actually power it off it will be dead to the world, apart from the, fairly unlikely, situation where there has been some 3rd party software installed to enable covert surveillance (mostly by security services). In that case the phone is never truly off but it is a very unlikely scenario.

With SD cards, they have (or had) a much lower limit on the number of times they could be rewritten than older magnetic media. Therefore they were designed to write data onto a fresh section until they had used the whole data storage & went back to the beginning. Formatting a card wil, generally, simply erase the index record of the contents unless you do some sort of secure wipe of it.

Magnetic media works differently & will overwrite the space where deleted files were. Even then it is often possible to recover data quite easily. I recovered a friend's completed degree thesis after it was accidentally deleted - the original file appeared to have been destroyed but I managed to find the temporary working file that Microsoft Word creates. That was also deleted but still intact & I was able to restore the content from that.

On GPS tracking. Identifying your location does not enable anyone to know where you are with transmission of that data by other means (WiFi, mobile data, Bluetooth at short range, etc) GPS by itself is a one way technology - satellites broadcast signals & whatever device you are using uses those signals to calculate your position.

[Ride-sleep-repeat]

Hi,
A bit of tape over the web cam on your device

I prefer to leave it.Thinking about it I would be quite amusing if someone were watching

[Psamathe]

Turning off tracking and being invisible are very different things. We were talking about manufacturers tracking you not about being "invisible".

Sorry but I was under the impression we were talking about your phone being tracked full stop?Regardless of what you do on your phone settings it is still tracked.As I said do some research.It will keep you busy for hours.Quite interesting too.
...

I'm actually fairly familiar with tracking, etc. and avoiding it so I wont be searching out proof for your allegations, proof that you decline provide.

But as I say, the issue is about who is tracking who. Tracking a phone handset (location or activity) is of no interest to anybody - what is of interest is attributing that location or activity to an individual. You can limit both aspects.

And when you are tracked what becomes an important consideration is the commercial interest of the company doing that tracking - why are they doing it and who will they pass the data on to (deliberately or accidentally). In addition to monetary costs there are potential reputation costs e.g. Apple make a big thing about the privacy of their customers and if their claims are then proven false (e.g. disgruntled employee) their reputation would be trashed which could have a massive impact on them being able to sell high priced kit ... so it likely isn't worth the risk.

Ian

[Psamathe]

I'm actually fairly familiar with tracking, etc. and avoiding it so I wont be searching out proof for your allegations, proof that you decline provide.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm not declining to provide anything matey.All the proof is out there is you can be ar$ed to search!You are obviously avoiding the obvious and not inclined to research the 100s of pages dedicated to this on the interweb :roll: Typical go to answer on this forum it seems.
Here's a thought...instead of sitting with your head in the sand and spending time going over the same stuff on this forum try doing some research.You might actually learn something.

Did you say you worked with the Police?Obviously some of their traits have rubbed off on you because they want everyone else to do the work for them too :wink: :roll:

Sorry, you made the assertions so I felt it reasonable to ask if you had sources and to say Google it ... sorry, not the way I work. Not a question of others doing my work - you make the assertion, you back it up with minimum some reliable sources.

I'm not going to start going through my career technical background or start a "I've more experience than you" @£$% measuring contest but your assumption I have my "head in the sand" is far from the case and I didn't say I worked with the Police but rather that on occasions was required to undertake data recovery for them (which is very different from working with them) - low level technical stuff using specialist hardware ... (Although I was once called as an expert witness over some data decryption I'd had to do for some special unit but it was cancelled at the last minute as apparently they'd messed up on some arrest formality and had to drop the entire case).

Ian

[Cowsham]

If you need to be on what'sapp to join the group there's a work around using a different sim card while you set it up and not allowing the phone to broadcast it's Mac number and other details ( you may need to enable developer options on phone )

but

any people on your contacts list that you allow what'sapp / use on the what'sapp app ( ie their phone numbers ) who are also on Facebook registered with same phone number will be given friend suggestions of all the people you are linked with on what'sapp ie YOU BECOME THE LINK

This can be very disconcerting when your wife on Facebook is receiving your work colleges or club group as friend suggestions !

This is why I got rid of what'sapp altogether -- when fb bought WA they said they wouldn't share contacts but they do it now.

I've moved to TELEGRAM to replace what'sapp ( set up on a different phone number in case the same fate happens to them )

Telegram is a much better app -- you can send up to 1.5gb on one message. You can turn end 2 end encryption off and on -- you can have secret chats -- and a host of other advantages over what'sapp.

One feature I like is -- it can notify you when someone on your contact list has joined telegram then you can block / archive them or keep them as main contacts.

A lot of my contacts are now on telegram -- some I've invited via the app but most because they have been invaded by wa like I have.

The designer *seems* dedicated to your privacy and has put features in place to facilitate that. That's what I've read from the blurb put out from it.

[Jdsk]

Why Signal's privacy model is preferable to WhatsApp's:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%2 ... 9#Security
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception ... y_features

And tomorrow is 15 May 2021.

And Telegram's reception:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_ ... #Reception

Jonathan

[Cowsham]

Why Signal's privacy model is preferable to WhatsApp's:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%2 ... 9#Security
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception ... y_features

And tomorrow is 15 May 2021.

And Telegram's:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_ ... #Reception

Jonathan

It's true telegrams end2end encryption isn't on by default but it can be used if needed -- I'd only use it for groups of work colleges where work info would be sensitive info -- one of the features I like about it is that large files like pictures are by default stored on their server so you'll not have your phone clogged up with pictures, videos and the like. You can of course download them to your phone in full resolution.

Signal had a few drawbacks with complexity of use and at the time I looked at the various comms apps, large files like pictures and video although that may have been resolved by now.