Dom puts the boot in...

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Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Psamathe »

rmurphy195 wrote: 27 May 2021, 9:57pm
Oldjohnw wrote: 27 May 2021, 5:52pm It’s impossible to know. But an inquiry would address this. Cummings does seem very prepared for such an early inquiry, taken under oath which does suggest he is sure of his ground. Johnson, meanwhile, wants to delay it as long as possible.
I'm minded of Jonathan Van-Tamms comments in a recent broadcast when he was asked about an enquiry - his response was "Please not yet". A very tired -looking JVT who like everyone else managing the crisis, is up to his neck in muck-and-bullets and really needs to focus on his work rather than being dragged off to give evidence. ......
Those people are paid by the Gov. and they are required to uphold Gov policy and Gov policy is to lick any inquiry into the long grass (no report until after next election).

I remember when when Chief Nurse was dropped from Downing Street press conference at the last minute because she refused to support Cumming's trip to Durham (and Gov's policy seemed to be to protect Cummings) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 62741.html. Vocal support of Johnson or you are no longer attending representing the Gov. so no surprise VAN Van Tam is wanting inquiry kicked into distant future.

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by thirdcrank »

With any inquiry, it's the understanding its purpose ie to learn how to improve or hang people out to dry (sometimes just hang them.)

Sometimes the first may also do the second, which is why there tends to be a lot of defensiveness
Oldjohnw
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Oldjohnw »

We are beyond the above ie “not yet, let us get on with the day job”. The urgent pressure on the system is, at least at the moment, behind us. There are so many truths, half truths and downright lies floating around we really need a full, legal, judge lead under oath and by legal summons, unrestricted inquiry, where telling lies would no longer be political opportunism but perjury. Otherwise the propaganda, politicking and confusion will reign and we will not be ready and lessons will be unlearned when something else hits us, as it surely will.

In the parliamentary privileged setting of a select committee Cummings - and Johnson and Hancock in due course - can say what they like. I am an admirer of these committees but the time comes when something more formal and structured, and which cannot be ignored, is needed.
Last edited by Oldjohnw on 28 May 2021, 8:57am, edited 1 time in total.
John
thirdcrank
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by thirdcrank »

... the time comes when something more formal and structured, and which cannot be ignored, is needed.
But you haven't explained the purpose of your proposed inquiry.

Truth for its own sake?
Learning which mistakes to avoid in a future pandemic?
Exposing a bunch of party politicians as being party politicians?
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 28 May 2021, 8:55am
... the time comes when something more formal and structured, and which cannot be ignored, is needed.
But you haven't explained the purpose of your proposed inquiry.

Truth for its own sake?
Learning which mistakes to avoid in a future pandemic?
Exposing a bunch of party politicians as being party politicians?
There are other reasons but "Truth for its own sake" will do. Or at least "Truth to inform future decisions". Democracy can't deliver its advantages if the governed don't know what the government has and hasn't done. The formal process of popular voting is a very small part of effective democracy.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 28 May 2021, 9:03am, edited 1 time in total.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Oldjohnw »

thirdcrank wrote: 28 May 2021, 8:55am
... the time comes when something more formal and structured, and which cannot be ignored, is needed.
But you haven't explained the purpose of your proposed inquiry.

Truth for its own sake?
Learning which mistakes to avoid in a future pandemic?
Exposing a bunch of party politicians as being party politicians?
Numbers one and two. As with all public inquiries. We need to trace events and find out what happened, what was good, what went wrong. In both cases why and what could be done better.

Incidentally, if corruption or illegality happens to be exposed - and this is already the subject of quite a bit of legal activity - this is not about party politicians being party politicians.
John
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by PDQ Mobile »

^^
Yes exactly.
thirdcrank
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by thirdcrank »

To get anywhere near the facts of what happened, it seems obvious to me that quizzing politicians is pointless, at least initially. The different people and agencies who contributed - or who might have contributed had they been asked - need to give their version. At that point, assuming the inquiry is led by somebody with judicial expertise, you normally need some assessors to advise the chair of the technical issues. Already, things are open to objection based on allegations of a lack of ... er ... objectivity or the right expertise.

IMO, it's only then that you can get the politicians before the Star Chamber, armed with the "facts."

Some of the current arguments seem to be based on an assumption that previous governments have been different. Just as one example, AIUI, it was Tony Blair who became known for unminuted discussions with ministerial colleagues and who was also known for employing special advisors able to bypass the Civil Service. I'm not suggesting TB was unique in this, but he seemed to develop the system more than had been the case. Whatever the perceived faults of civil servants, they do tend to keep detailed records, if only to cover their own backsides.

Another thing which seemed to develop with Tony Blair was the shift to a presidential form of government. That's not the same thing as strong leadership.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Oldjohnw »

I don’t think it is about previous governments being different. An inquiry would not be about this government compared with another but about the preparation for and management of the pandemic. That might indeed include what previous governments did: I imagine that knowing the starting point in December 2019 would be essential.Politicians absolutely must be quizzed under oath: it is they who made decisions. Let them have legal support and state their case, under oath and not with parliamentary privilege.

Otherwise we just get political back and forward and posturing and blaming.
John
thirdcrank
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by thirdcrank »

My reference to previous governments was not about how they handled the preparations for the pandemic, but how previous governments governed. I think it's fair to say that party politicians look back at what "worked" for their predecessors. So, an unpopular Margaret Thatcher had an unexpected electoral boost from her military response to the invasion of the Falklands, which arguably only occurred as the result of a cock-up. Hence Tony Blair engineered the invasion of Iraq (and Boris Johnson sent the "gunboats" to Jersey.) My basic point is that we have surreptitiously scrapped cabinet government
Oldjohnw
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Oldjohnw »

thirdcrank wrote: 28 May 2021, 2:00pm My reference to previous governments was not about how they handled the preparations for the pandemic, but how previous governments governed. I think it's fair to say that party politicians look back at what "worked" for their predecessors. So, an unpopular Margaret Thatcher had an unexpected electoral boost from her military response to the invasion of the Falklands, which arguably only occurred as the result of a cock-up. Hence Tony Blair engineered the invasion of Iraq (and Boris Johnson sent the "gunboats" to Jersey.) My basic point is that we have surreptitiously scrapped cabinet government
Agree about cabinet government. And parliamentary accountability.
John
pwa
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by pwa »

The revelations provided by Cummings all seem very plausible, so I am inclined to think he is mostly telling the truth. But what a snake the man is! He knew what Boris was when he conspired to get him into power. He was a willing and central figure at Number 10. And suddenly, after getting the push, he is all contrite and eager to spill the beans. His only motivation is revenge. He doesn't care about Covid deaths or anything else a normal decent person might consider important. All he wants is to bring his former team down after they cast him adrift. Maybe Boris deserves it, but this should be a warning to anyone who might be tempted to employ the services of Cummings in the future.
Ben@Forest
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Ben@Forest »

pwa wrote: 29 May 2021, 6:06am The revelations provided by Cummings all seem very plausible, so I am inclined to think he is mostly telling the truth...
There was an article in The Telegraph yesterday which showed some of things he said were false and others at least open to interpretation. Plausibility doesn't mean truth. Of course we can all tell 'our truth' these days....
pwa
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by pwa »

Ben@Forest wrote: 29 May 2021, 7:18am
pwa wrote: 29 May 2021, 6:06am The revelations provided by Cummings all seem very plausible, so I am inclined to think he is mostly telling the truth...
There was an article in The Telegraph yesterday which showed some of things he said were false and others at least open to interpretation. Plausibility doesn't mean truth. Of course we can all tell 'our truth' these days....
I stuck the word "mostly" in there because I'm not silly enough to assume he won't put at least one fib into any protracted statement. He says whatever suits his purpose, whether it is true or not. But the picture he paints of a Boris who is flippant, opportunist and sometimes reckless kind of fits with my existing impressions. And if we think Cummings is an unprincipled liar, what does that say about the man who employed his services and relied so heavily on him? Whichever way you look at it, Boris doesn't come out of this smelling of roses.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Dom puts the boot in...

Post by Oldjohnw »

All of which is exactly why an inquiry, judge lead and under oath is needed.

Even Johnson, the man that didn’t notice that a £200,000 refurbishment bill had somehow been paid on his behalf, said that some of the things said were not true. The implication is pretty obvious.

A year ago this very week the Telegraph and the entire cabinet were rushing to defend Cummings for breaking lockdown. Now they dismiss him as a liar and fantasist.
John
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