Covid as an excuse for poor service

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axel_knutt
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by axel_knutt »

thirdcrank wrote: 28 May 2021, 12:03pmI'm provoked into posting this by a morning spent on the wrong end of execrable service from my bank which used to advertise the excellence of its telephone service.
A couple of months ago I rang a bank (to close a disused account), and got a recorded message telling me everyone was working from home, so I should leave a message with my phone number and someone would call me back. A few minutes later there was a call from someone asking for my account number and password, but when I pointed out that the banks all tell us that they will never do this, she didn't seem to have any answer and just took a take it or leave it attitude. I contacted the banking regulator afterwards, they didn't seem to care much either, their attitude seemed to be "oh, it's probably alright, I wouldn't worry about it".
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
LancsGirl
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by LancsGirl »

Mike Sales wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 9:43am
simonineaston wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 9:38am I notice with some wry amusement that one David Davis - once famously described by a certain Dom Cummings as being as "thick as mince", is objecting to both the NHS Digital so-called big data grab as well as to the proposed cuts to over-seas aid... (alongside a significant number of other Tory MPs including Teresa May)
Davis has risen a long way in my estimation in the last couple of days.
Assessing politicians over "a couple of days" seems to me like a very short period.

David Davis has a long history of supporting civil liberties and restraining the power of the state in terms of surveillance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dav ... olitician)

Andrew Mitchell has done a lot of work in the field of overseas aid and development, and is the leader of the current Tory "rebellion" over the cut in the overseas aid budget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Mitchell

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... r-aid-cuts

Of course in the negative tribal world of UK politics, most "politically engaged" (so they imagine)* people react at the most superficial level, and in a binary way. If somebody supported/opposed Brexit they are completely evil, if this person is a member of such-and-such a party they are totally wrong on every single issue etc. etc.

In the case of Andrew Mitchell he once, allegedly, called somebody a "Pleb", so is as evil as Ghenghis Khan.

The notion that some things that any politician does are good, and some bad, seems to be an impossibility in most people's minds. Rather than being the reality of a democracy in a complex world, where those politicians have to balance conflicting needs and respond to unexpected events.

Apparently the Tory party managers think the overseas aid cut is "popular". The Tories are far better at winning elections than Labour, so maybe they are right. But this rebellion is the sort of thing that pushes this voter just a tiny bit closer to voting Tory (which would be a first). Though that would depend on so many other factors it is still improbable.

*An example of that superficiality is a relative of mine (Guardian reading, demo attending) ranting about how evil "David Davis" was. Blissfully unaware that there are two MPs with that name, with a one letter difference.
Last edited by LancsGirl on 7 Jun 2021, 10:49am, edited 1 time in total.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Tangled Metal »

I called to a utility about something and got the "due to COVID..." message. Sat down for long wait and immediately got an Indian sounding lady answering the phone. Great I thought, a 20 minutes of trying to be understood followed by the call centre person jab hanging up on me rudely because my case didn't match her script options I guess. That's my last few experiences with Indian call centres.

To my surprise the issue was sorted in 5 minutes. I was so surprised I kind of lost for words and the goodbye bit was awkward.

So my take away view is that covid is an excuse. Indian call centres and their staff can be very helpful. Sometimes they beat all your wishes for a good service. Stereotypes are an easy trap to fall into. If the service is good it matters not where they are located. Blaming location when it's the systems of the service is not right is too easy to do.
Psamathe
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Psamathe »

simonineaston wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 8:38am Never mind 'poor service' - Harding and more importantly her hubby who is on record as saying that the pandemic would be a great opportunity to make money out of the nation's health, are poised for a two-prong attack, mid-pandemic:
* Illegal data grab - all our medical records!!
* Mrs to go for ceo NHS England!!
A lot of doctors v. concerned - I am too - but doctors more important than me obs ;-)
simonineaston wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 8:49am Article about the legal challenge to the big NHS data grab here.
Opting out os something of a challenge. You may be able to opt-out online but there is conflicting and ambiguous information about what exactly you are opting out from and if the current data grab is included in this opt-out. So try and call them on the number they publish for this purpose https://www.nhs.uk/your-nhs-data-matter ... ur-choice/ and after an hour in their "we value your call ... and will answer at the 1st opportunity ..." you give-up and e-mail them. But they don't respond to e-mails (on their published e-mail address for this purpose). Feeling masochistic, tried to call the number again today and continually get "Call Failed" (which at least does not waste as much time as listening to how valuabl my call is for an hour!

And we trust such a disorganised body to manage our medical records & privacy?

Ian
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simonineaston
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by simonineaston »

To be honest, I probably won't opt out as its an ineffective tool. What I'm most worried about is that this massive data dump is part of the avowed intention of these people to privatise the NHS by stealth.
I'd rather GPs and other health professionals carefully considered the proposal in detail and acted accordingly. I fully accept that the data is a totally fabulous resource for research but I have a queasy feeling that unless safeguards are put in place, it's going to be used commercially - and with no holds barred - and I don't think that's right. I do not want private individuals / companies making a fortune out of all our medical records, thanks!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Psamathe
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Psamathe »

simonineaston wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 12:06pm To be honest, I probably won't opt out as its an ineffective tool. What I'm most worried about is that this massive data dump is part of the avowed intention of these people to privatise the NHS by stealth.
I'd rather GPs and other health professionals carefully considered the proposal in detail and acted accordingly. I fully accept that the data is a totally fabulous resource for research but I have a queasy feeling that unless safeguards are put in place, it's going to be used commercially - and with no holds barred - and I don't think that's right. I do not want private individuals / companies making a fortune out of my medical records, thanks!
I suspect that a lot of the intended use of my (and others) data would be worthwhile and something I'd fully support. But it'd such a broad "in or out" and the aspects I disapprove of are all bundled in so failing to opt-out becomes agreeing to those uses I disapprove of.

Examples of uses I disapprove of might include being passed to a Big Pharma company to help develop some amazing drug which is then unavailable to most of the world and rejected by NICE because of the cost and only available to a few very wealthy but still generates the massive profits the company seeks. Or where my data is sold and the income used to pay the salary of e.g. Dido Hardening (our future Head of NHS England?).

Ian
Last edited by Psamathe on 7 Jun 2021, 12:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by [XAP]Bob »

simonineaston wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 12:06pm To be honest, I probably won't opt out as its an ineffective tool. What I'm most worried about is that this massive data dump is part of the avowed intention of these people to privatise the NHS by stealth.
And this will therefore be taken as a blanket - no-one even bothered to opt out, so it's all fine.

[/quote]
I do not want private individuals / companies making a fortune out of all our medical records, thanks!
[/quote]

Then opt out - irrespective of whether it actually stops your data being sold it does actually send a signal that this isn't acceptable.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Oldjohnw »

This was the subject of another poorly contributed to thread.

One reason I suspect that this is not a good thing is that it is being done almost secretly, very quickly and in a way that is extremely difficult to find anything about. Given the lack of transparency I have to assume it is not for the general good but only for the benefit of a few. Since this is a government with a particular track record I imagine that benefit is about power, wealth or both.
John
Tangled Metal
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Tangled Metal »

There's already a lot of medical data being used in research but research institutions working with the NHS in various fields. The NHS has a lengthy and rigorous ethics approval for in house and external research proposals. Universities too have ethics approval processes to go through.

Having known people who have been through such processes to access NHS staff, facilities and records. Well its all they talked about for the several months of work and waiting for approval. Plus the amendments to their research proposals needed due to issues raised by NHS ethics.

I'm not saying it's all OK but I do wonder if people know what goes on in medical related research and NHS research/collaborations? If people have a clue of how data could be used or the procedures to use such data both before this "data grab" and after it. I sure a hell don't but I know it's not been easy and those ethics procedures will still be in place for NHS research and collaboration projects. I doubt a big commercial company would get past ethics as easily as people seem to think on here. Although I too am not happy with this change. It doesn't feel right even if there's checks and balances to prevent exploitation. That feeling isn't based on evidence but pure uneasiness with this change in data protection. I think that's where we all are. No evidence one way or another just a feeling its wrong.

I could be wrong. JDSK might just have a link coming my way to provide the evidence it's an unsafe change.
Psamathe
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 1:23pm There's already a lot of medical data being used in research but research institutions working with the NHS in various fields. The NHS has a lengthy and rigorous ethics approval for in house and external research proposals. Universities too have ethics approval processes to go through.

Having known people who have been through such processes to access NHS staff, facilities and records. Well its all they talked about for the several months of work and waiting for approval. Plus the amendments to their research proposals needed due to issues raised by NHS ethics.

I'm not saying it's all OK but I do wonder if people know what goes on in medical related research and NHS research/collaborations? If people have a clue of how data could be used or the procedures to use such data both before this "data grab" and after it. I sure a hell don't but I know it's not been easy and those ethics procedures will still be in place for NHS research and collaboration projects. I doubt a big commercial company would get past ethics as easily as people seem to think on here. Although I too am not happy with this change. It doesn't feel right even if there's checks and balances to prevent exploitation. That feeling isn't based on evidence but pure uneasiness with this change in data protection. I think that's where we all are. No evidence one way or another just a feeling its wrong.

I could be wrong. JDSK might just have a link coming my way to provide the evidence it's an unsafe change.
I think an important aspect is "trust" and the extent our politicians will influence what happens after the event. It certainly looks like there is mis-information in the press e.g. that you data will be sold yet NHS Digital's web site clams your data will not be sold but NHS Digital's website does not seem to specify if that applies to the current proposed GPDPR. And with so many professional bodies coming out against the way things are being done. Add in how little time and publicity and it's no surprise many have such mistrust. And there seems nobody providing any reassurances.

Ian
Tim Holman
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Tim Holman »

Trust? Who could trust any governing party with... CON... as part of its name?
Tim
Mike Sales
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Mike Sales »

LancsGirl wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 10:20am
Assessing politicians over "a couple of days" seems to me like a very short period.

David Davis has a long history of supporting civil liberties and restraining the power of the state in terms of surveillance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dav ... olitician)

Andrew Mitchell has done a lot of work in the field of overseas aid and development, and is the leader of the current Tory "rebellion" over the cut in the overseas aid budget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Mitchell

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... r-aid-cuts

Of course in the negative tribal world of UK politics, most "politically engaged" (so they imagine)* people react at the most superficial level, and in a binary way. If somebody supported/opposed Brexit they are completely evil, if this person is a member of such-and-such a party they are totally wrong on every single issue etc. etc.

In the case of Andrew Mitchell he once, allegedly, called somebody a "Pleb", so is as evil as Ghenghis Khan.

The notion that some things that any politician does are good, and some bad, seems to be an impossibility in most people's minds. Rather than being the reality of a democracy in a complex world, where those politicians have to balance conflicting needs and respond to unexpected events.

Apparently the Tory party managers think the overseas aid cut is "popular". The Tories are far better at winning elections than Labour, so maybe they are right. But this rebellion is the sort of thing that pushes this voter just a tiny bit closer to voting Tory (which would be a first). Though that would depend on so many other factors it is still improbable.

*An example of that superficiality is a relative of mine (Guardian reading, demo attending) ranting about how evil "David Davis" was. Blissfully unaware that there are two MPs with that name, with a one letter difference.
I hope I can give credit where it is due, but Davis has been a cabinet member and so must accept the collective responsibilty for the actions of those Governments.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Govnor
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Govnor »

We are buying on a company credit card small items in a couple of thousand or less.
Doesn't turn up and a bell and dealt with.
Aluminium Decking is 2022, lots of items just not available
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simonineaston
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by simonineaston »

simonineaston wrote: 7 Jun 2021, 12:06pm To be honest, I probably won't opt out as its an ineffective tool. What I'm most worried about is that this massive data dump is part of the avowed intention of these people to privatise the NHS by stealth.
I'd rather GPs and other health professionals carefully considered the proposal in detail and acted accordingly. I fully accept that the data is a totally fabulous resource for research but I have a queasy feeling that unless safeguards are put in place, it's going to be used commercially - and with no holds barred - and I don't think that's right. I do not want private individuals / companies making a fortune out of all our medical records, thanks!
Now postponed - see here if interested.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Psamathe
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Re: Covid as an excuse for poor service

Post by Psamathe »

Through most of the pandemic I've noticed longer telephone queues "your call is valuable to us but we're experiencing ...". Recently I've found I'm getting explicit "person got Covid" as reasons for something not happening which is making me suspicious it's not being used as an excuse. e.g. company asked to come to cut some of my trees clear of electric cables, they called fri to come on Mon so I had to wait in and a no show and when claiming the no-show fee I was given "he caught Covid" (but nobody bothered to call and tell me). Another today "she's off with Covid ...".

So either the number of infections is getting far worse than expected or it's now just being used as an excuse or maybe other reasons for it as an excuse like childcare complications when school sends loads of kids home 'cos of Covid or people not yet quite in the return to the office mood or other possibilities.

Of course they might be genuine as it's only my limited anechdotal experience (very small sample size) - just interesting that I've never had the excuse since 1st lockdown but since Johnson declared the pandmic sorted it's started happening.

Ian
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