I wonder if.......

[Mick F]

Exactly that.
The point is, that they were called concentration camps then.
My uncle was in one and the family described it such.

Definitions change.
If I could go back in time and listen to the words used, I could quote them as per.
Sorry, I can't.

Dunno what the later Oxford Dictionaries say, coz I ain't got one to check, but what I quoted from 1968 and 1999 is what is printed.

[Jdsk]

Sorry to bring this up ........... but I've been doing some reading of our old Oxford Concise Dictionaries.

Quoting the relevant bits from the 1968 one and the 1999 one.

1968 page 250

- Hence Concentration n - ion camp, for the political prisoners, internees, etc

1999 page 295

concentration camp. n. a camp for detaining political prisoners, especially in Nazi Germany.

Note that there's no mention of wholesale murder.

Sorry if I offend, but definitions change over the years. I cannot say what later dictionaries say.

Those quotations from dictionaries don't mention prisoners of war, a different category from political prisoners or internees.

Jonathan

[Mick F]

No.
Not arguing that point, or wishing to offend anyone.
I honestly state that I wish no offence in the slightest.

I'm making the point that my uncle was in a concentration camp for most of WW2.
That's what it was called, that's what the family said, and that's what he personally said.

The fact that the definition has changed since then, doesn't alter the facts or the words from back then.

[Ben@Forest]

1999 page 295

concentration camp. n. a camp for detaining political prisoners, especially in Nazi Germany.

Note that there's no mention of wholesale murder.

Sorry if I offend, but definitions change over the years. I cannot say what later dictionaries say.

Concentration camps (Konzentrationslager) run by the Nazis were not for wholesale murder. Extermination camps (Vernichtungslager) were. Neither of these were POW camps. There has been no change in definition (and a concise dictionary is not the place to research it in any meaningful way).

Having said all that some British military personnel did end up in concentration camps, usually for repeated escape efforts or attempting to sabotage German matériel whilst working (as all non-officers could be detailed to do). Some however ended up at concentration or even extermination camps for seemingly no good reason.

https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/feature ... tz-1.13446

It could be your uncle somehow found himself in a concentration camp....

[Mick F]

Possibly.
Dunno.

No-one to ask about it is still with us.

[ossie]

.

[thirdcrank]

On the matter of prison camps, there's something about the recent turn of this thread that reminds me of Cool Hand Luke

[Oldjohnw]

I was born in England and have lived my entire life here. My father spent a number of years as a POW in the hands of the Nazis. An uncle disappeared never to be seen or heard of again.

I have no difficulty hearing the word ‘Germany’ in relation to a rival sports team or in any context without automatically thinking of wars, jackboots or domination. Or VE Day or victory and defeat.

I grew up in Germany. My parents were in the Army & WRAF and were commiserate in the efforts to put the place back together. Not once from them, their friends, my friends, my education or any associates did I hear any reference to VE day, jackboots or domination.

Travel broadens the mind, I suggest you try it but I fear its too late in your case.

What on earth are you talking about?

[slowster]

Travel broadens the mind

That's just as well, because it doesn't appear to improve reading comprehension or manners.

[slowster]

Let's just say: please don't refer to a POW camp as a 'concentration camp'. That will upset many people more than it upsets me. In fact, it would upset many Germans more than it does me, if any happen to be reading this forum. OK?

As Ben@Forest has pointed out, some British POWs did end up in a concentration camp. How do you know that MickF's uncle was not one of them?

You seem more concerned with imagining how some hypothetical German might feel who happened to read the post, than with the actual impact on MickF of growing up with an uncle who was "scarred for the rest of his life and never got over it".

Playing the Holocaust card, as you described it, is exactly what you did, and in doing so you made MickF's post - telling us about his uncle's, his own, and his family's experiences - all about you.

[Tangled Metal]

Perhaps the issue is as much the way concentration camp has changed to be taken for death camp as the way PoW camp is called concentration camp by some. If ppl had the subtlety to know the difference between c camp and d camp then offence taken by someone
discussing a relative being sent to a c camp might not be an issue.

However ppl in the wider public (less so here I'm sure) won't know about it care about such distinctions. Likely they'll use c camp to mean d camp or PoW camp. It is so long ago to many and without the holocaust museums and other locations of remembrance I wonder how long before it would end up being fully past events only learnt in history lessons? Just a thought.

[ossie]

Travel broadens the mind

That's just as well, because it doesn't appear to improve reading comprehension or manners.

I deleted the post as it probably upset him more than it upset me. I guess I struggled to get my head around the idea that when he thought of Germany he thought of 'wars, jackboots and domination' which is such an archaic view . Although I understand his reasons you'd be hard to find such sweeping generalisations on social media nowadays. A visit would greatly change his perception and I would encourage anyone to visit as its a lovely country.

Having lived there and visited many German cities that were flattened in the war you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who shared a similar view about the British, the RAF or bomber Harris for example despite the horrendous loss of life from the air. In relation to the past, as mentioned in other posts its important that it's not all forgotten. German children are educated about the holocaust (it's mandatory) and it used to be the case that school visits to concentration camps were included in this. Incidentally I lived not far from Bergen Belsen, although not much remains it's quite a haunting place.

I returned to the Möhnesee (of Dambusters fame) before Covid which is a stunningly beautiful place. The only reminder to the loss of life when the dam was bombed (1600 people drowned) is a small memorial, however the old lady in the kiosk on the dam entrance reserves a tatty book under the counter for those who wish to enquire about the bombing raid (It's in English of course).

[Oldjohnw]

For the record, I was not upset and never expressed such. I asked what you meant as it appeared that you had turned what I wrote completely on its head and in such an aggressive way and your misrepresentation absolutely flabbergasted me.

It doesn't help your case that you compounded that by saying I was upset when there was absolutely no indication of this. If you hadn't brought it up again I had no intention of speaking of it.

You continue to misrepresent what I wrote.

[ossie]

For the record, I was not upset and never expressed such. I asked what you meant as it appeared that you had turned what I wrote completely on its head and in such an aggressive way and your misrepresentation absolutely flabbergasted me.

It doesn't help your case that you compounded that by saying I was upset when there was absolutely no indication of this. If you hadn't brought it up again I had no intention of speaking of it.

You continue to misrepresent what I wrote.

How exactly did I misrepresent the below quote ? It is an absurd sweeping generalisation that was unfortunately followed up by another poster throwing in similar views about concentration / POW camps. I just find it astounding that in 2021 people still hold these thoughts. Anyway the moments gone, the tournament has finished and perceptions can be put to one side until the next time I guess. You're probably right I shouldn't have raised it again but felt compelled to explain my reasons for quoting you.

I have no difficulty hearing the word ‘Germany’ in relation to a rival sports team or in any context without automatically thinking of wars, jackboots or domination. Or VE Day or victory and defeat.

[Oldjohnw]

It really isn’t worth my time arguing this one. Suffice to say: some people get all war time whenever Germany is mentioned. I don’t. This was in the context of animosity between England and German fans and recent press.

I quite categorically said that when I thought of Germany I did NOT think of wars. You accused me of the exact opposite here:

I guess I struggled to get my head around the idea that when he thought of Germany he thought of 'wars, jackboots and domination'

I wrote:

i have no difficulty hearing the word ‘Germany’ in relation to a rival sports team or in any context without automatically thinking of wars,

You then raged at me for being narrow mind and needing to travel. I had gone to some length to demonstrate my own father’s complete reconciliation with Germany despite his WW2 treatment. And I never mentioned concentration camps and only spoke well of Germans. I don’t know how speaking entirely of my own or my father’s views can be a generalisation, sweeping or not. It was quite clearly my own view and I said as much.