I wonder if.......

[Oldjohnw]

Just saw a video clip of Spanish fans beating up a moped riding pizza delivery guy straight after losing to Italy. A huge crowd surrounded him and kept kicking him off his moped until someone eventually helped him up and away. There's nice football fans everywhere it seems.

True. But very few have their behaviour in effect endorsed by the government.

[661-Pete]

Just saw a video clip of Spanish fans beating up a moped riding pizza delivery guy straight after losing to Italy. A huge crowd surrounded him and kept kicking him off his moped until someone eventually helped him up and away. There's nice football fans everywhere it seems.

When I earlier conflated 'fans' with 'hooligans' I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek - and partly fuelled by anger at behaviour that could have blinded that unfortunate goalie.

Booing may be unpleasant, but doesn't directly hurt anyone. (Argue this point if you like!)

But your report of the assault on the moped rider reminds me of a nasty incident I witnessed when I took part in a Critical Mass many years ago (I don't go to them now - for good reason). A young moped rider, barely out of his teens, who'd apparently made a close pass, was surrounded and threatened by a bunch of cyclists, if you please! They had grabbed hold of his keys and were tossing them from man to man. The lad was terrified. Somehow I managed to catch the keys and hand them back to him, and he made his escape.

This was not just one cyclist (POB?) but a gang of them. Some people! Perhaps we need a psychologist's wisdom...

[ossie]

Just saw a video clip of Spanish fans beating up a moped riding pizza delivery guy straight after losing to Italy. A huge crowd surrounded him and kept kicking him off his moped until someone eventually helped him up and away. There's nice football fans everywhere it seems.

True. But very few have their behaviour in effect endorsed by the government.

This country has the tightest controls on football hooliganism in the world. All endorsed by the Government.
Be prepared however, win or lose on Sunday you will see some behaviour that will have you tutting all night long and probably into Tuesday judging by this thread . However these aren't 'typical' football fans in the same way all of these Celbs, politicians and Royals jumping on the bandwagon aren't. I've been to thousands of games following my local football team across the country and can't remember the last bit of aggro I saw. Yet every Friday and Saturday night is carnage in many town centres, just ask any cop - nothing to with football, simply a society issue.

Booing the national anthems is literally panto, in an arena. Most set of fans including the Danish have done it but for some reason England excel at it. I find it a little tedious however. I mean the Italian national anthem is brilliant, why not all sing along to it, you don't even need to know the words. Obviously it will be booed and the press will go into overdrive. Its an occasion, tribalism has always been a major part of the game. One town / City / Country against the other, great rivalries.

[Mike Sales]

This was not just one cyclist (POB?) but a gang of them. Some people! Perhaps we need a psychologist's wisdom...

I am no psychologist but it seems to me that this is an aspect of the "them and us" trait, of "othering" .
A large part of the England football team mass enthusiasm is that we can feel part of something much bigger than ourselves. The other side of this togetherness is the enmity towards those who are not "us".
We can feel a warm, inclusive, social excitement and enjoy this, but also join in attacking the other, and lose individual inhibitions against such behaviour.
There are good and bad sides to subsuming our own small identity into the larger grouping.

[Tangled Metal]

Sorry it was Italian fans with the pizza moped delivery boy. Although that didn't make sense as its Italians kicking down a delivery man delivering Italian linked food. That's just thugs being thugs after they went to watch a football game.

I'm interested in the critical mass issues you have. That incident you described Pete makes me even more convinced the issue is with groups not the thing they're brought together by. It's not football causing their bad behaviour but the sense of mob. Mob mentality possibly led by a smaller minority with their own motives to cause an incident.

I've felt peer pressure or rather the mob mentality cause me to get carried away and into trouble but tbf i was a kid and I've since grown up. I'm my own man in that respect now. Could the hooligans just not be fully grown up as an individual?

[Mike Sales]

Before a demonstration we gave ourselves training in non-violent direct action.
Besides not initiating violence we taught ourselves not to react to police provocation.

[Oldjohnw]

I don't think that Ms Patel has quite realised that, just like herself, 8 out of 11 of the England team have a parent or grandparent born overseas.

[661-Pete]

I'm interested in the critical mass issues you have. That incident you described Pete makes me even more convinced the issue is with groups not the thing they're brought together by. It's not football causing their bad behaviour but the sense of mob. Mob mentality possibly led by a smaller minority with their own motives to cause an incident.

I think you're right, there.

I did use to join up with the 'usual suspects' (on Cycling+, later on ACF forums) at the London CM. Yes I suppose it's a sense of 'belonging': "I'm a cyclist, I feel comfortable with a lot of cyclists around...."

The very last time I went, I saw some participants jumping up and down on the roof of a black taxi, and yelling insults at the cabbie. I didn't see what provoked this. But clearly an individual cyclist, cut up by same cabbie, might have rebuked him with a few choice words (I've done as much) - but he or she wouldn't have tried to vandalise the cab. It's the mob factor that leads people to extremes.

The joker with the laser may have been a single individual, but if he'd just been situated at random in the crowd, surely the spectators around him would have soon spotted what he was up to and disarmed him. No, my guess is he was part of the mob - and the mob may well have egged him on. We'll only know for certain if he's caught - which will only be if one of his 'mates' shops him.... (I'm assuming it was a 'he')

I've been to Wembley a few times, but not as a spectator, I was there in my Software Engineer hat to work on the installations during the building phase. I didn't notice whether they've put airport-style security gates at the entrances. Have they? If not, oughtn't they to?

[Tangled Metal]

I once read how to make a laser using a small maglite torch as the base and buying the electronic part online for £5. Total price read £10!! It was supposedly powerful enough to break an egg across a room. If you got a mini maglite or equivalent generic copy as your keyring would a security guard actually know to check it for laser capabilities? Even an actual laser. Could someone not pass it off as a torch?

I'm not sure Heathrow style controls would necessarily catch or identify anything wrong with such a device.

[661-Pete]

I once read how to make a laser using a small maglite torch as the base and buying the electronic part online for £5. Total price read £10!! It was supposedly powerful enough to break an egg across a room. If you got a mini maglite or equivalent generic copy as your keyring would a security guard actually know to check it for laser capabilities? Even an actual laser. Could someone not pass it off as a torch?

I'm not sure Heathrow style controls would necessarily catch or identify anything wrong with such a device.

That raises the question: why would anyone need to take a torch into Wembley (or any other sports venue)? At airports even such items as screwdrivers will be confiscated.

[ossie]

I've been to Wembley a few times, but not as a spectator, I was there in my Software Engineer hat to work on the installations during the building phase. I didn't notice whether they've put airport-style security gates at the entrances. Have they? If not, oughtn't they to?

Airport style ? I visited when Tottenham were using it (not my team) and it was the usual pat down and once over with a wand. They want as many people to get in as quick as possible to spend their money on over priced beer and hot dogs.

The whole experience reminded me of Disneyland Orlando. How much money can we extort from a captive audience. Even the local pubs put their beer prices up substantially.

[Ben@Forest]

That raises the question: why would anyone need to take a torch into Wembley (or any other sports venue)? At airports even such items as screwdrivers will be confiscated.

Well you can understand that, on 9/11 some of the terrorists took over the planes armed with small box cutter knives. But having a small torch on a key ring wasn't that unusual 10 or 20 years ago, the torch function on mobile phones has made that more redundant.

[Tangled Metal]

Are torches such as mini maglite even confiscated at airports? I'm sure I've flown post 9/11 with one in my pocket. Certainly wouldn't be a problem at sporting or concert venues.

[Ben@Forest]

Are torches such as mini maglite even confiscated at airports? I'm sure I've flown post 9/11 with one in my pocket. Certainly wouldn't be a problem at sporting or concert venues.

I'm pretty sure I've flown with one too. I had a torch on my car key for years, the key and torch will of course gone through the x-ray.

[Oldjohnw]

I was born in England and have lived my entire life here. My father spent a number of years as a POW in the hands of the Nazis. An uncle disappeared never to be seen or heard of again.

I have no difficulty hearing the word ‘Germany’ in relation to a rival sports team or in any context without automatically thinking of wars, jackboots or domination. Or VE Day or victory and defeat.