Moving

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thirdcrank
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Re: Moving

Post by thirdcrank »

I cannot see how heat pump systems could be easily retro-fitted into existing houses,
I think air-source heat pumps are similar in size and appearance to an air-con unit. I only know this because a former colleague has one which I took to be air-con till he explained. His was retrofitted on a 1960s bungalow but I don't know what faff it involved
rjb
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Re: Moving

Post by rjb »

ASHP's are expensive to run in comparison with alternatives even more so when covid will require us to increase ventilation. We may all end up heating the whole street as winter approaches or we will need to fit a heat recovery ventilation system. More expense and these are only 70% effective. :(
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peterb
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Re: Moving

Post by peterb »

thirdcrank wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 12:03pm
I cannot see how heat pump systems could be easily retro-fitted into existing houses,
I think air-source heat pumps are similar in size and appearance to an air-con unit. I only know this because a former colleague has one which I took to be air-con till he explained. His was retrofitted on a 1960s bungalow but I don't know what faff it involved
Ours occupies a space approximately 4' x 2'6" x 5' high. The storage tank is immense compared with an old fashioned cylinder. There was certainly nowhere in our old terraced property we could have installed such a heat pump and cylinder, as the front was directly on the road and the back had glazed doors the full width, with high walls either side. The property was also in a conservation area with listed buildings either side and as such subject to quite strict planning constraints - eg no double glazing on the road side.
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Paulatic
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Re: Moving

Post by Paulatic »

rjb wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 1:42pm ASHP's are expensive to run in comparison with alternatives
Might that be dependent on what your alternatives are?
I’ve a ten year experience of ASHP air2air heating and the experience of being able to compare costs with buying solid fuel, manufactured heat logs, free firewood, electric 1kw in to1kw out. I can’t compare with oil, natural gas or propane of which I imagine only natural gas can win out.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Moving

Post by [XAP]Bob »

thirdcrank wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 12:03pm
I cannot see how heat pump systems could be easily retro-fitted into existing houses,
I think air-source heat pumps are similar in size and appearance to an air-con unit. I only know this because a former colleague has one which I took to be air-con till he explained. His was retrofitted on a 1960s bungalow but I don't know what faff it involved
Air conditioning *is* a heat pump, so that's exactly what they look like.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Moving

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Paulatic wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 2:00pm
rjb wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 1:42pm ASHP's are expensive to run in comparison with alternatives
Might that be dependent on what your alternatives are?
I’ve a ten year experience of ASHP air2air heating and the experience of being able to compare costs with buying solid fuel, manufactured heat logs, free firewood, electric 1kw in to1kw out. I can’t compare with oil, natural gas or propane of which I imagine only natural gas can win out.
Even natural gas can be better used by burning it in a power station, because the increase in efficiency of the heat pump means you get more heat into a house for a given volume of gas burnt by using it in a power station and then running a heat pump than you would by just burning it on site.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
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Re: Moving

Post by Jdsk »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 12:01pm
Paulatic wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 2:00pm
rjb wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 1:42pm ASHP's are expensive to run in comparison with alternatives
Might that be dependent on what your alternatives are?
I’ve a ten year experience of ASHP air2air heating and the experience of being able to compare costs with buying solid fuel, manufactured heat logs, free firewood, electric 1kw in to1kw out. I can’t compare with oil, natural gas or propane of which I imagine only natural gas can win out.
Even natural gas can be better used by burning it in a power station, because the increase in efficiency of the heat pump means you get more heat into a house for a given volume of gas burnt by using it in a power station and then running a heat pump than you would by just burning it on site.
I've never heard that before but I can see how it might work out.

Is it very different between retrofitting to old housing and installing in new build that is optimised for the heat pump?

Thanks

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: Moving

Post by al_yrpal »

ASHPs are a cheap solution. Better are Ground Source devices. No noisy fans, but involves digging expensive very big holes or drilling boreholes. That would be my choice. Lots of scope here with a massive garden. I dont think the listing folk would appreciate ugly fan units stuck on the wall.
The 30 degree heat has caused us to turn the Aga off, now relying on a Baby Belling to do the cooking. The Quooker will help a lot preheating cooking water. The insulated solar blinds seem very effective in shutting the fierce sun.

Now awaiting the plasterer, and having been offered the loan of a friends £7000 scaffold might tackle painting, cornices and chair rails ourselves?

Al
Last edited by al_yrpal on 19 Jul 2021, 11:35am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jdsk
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Re: Moving

Post by Jdsk »

al_yrpal wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 11:01am ASHPs are a cheap solution. Better are Ground Source devices. No noisy fans, but involves digging expensive very big holes or drilling boreholes. That would be my choice. Lots of scope here with a massive garden. I dont think the listing folk would appreciate ugly fan units stuck on the wall.
We went into that in some detail when we renovated our house 10 y ago. In the end we decided not to as it involved a lot of proprietary equipment which might have become very difficult or expensive to service.

(It's an old stone house which ended up with some but not all underfloor heating. The time to payback was longer than it would have been with a new build, but still acceptable.)

Jonathan
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Moving

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Jdsk wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 10:06am
[XAP]Bob wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 12:01pm
Paulatic wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 2:00pm
Might that be dependent on what your alternatives are?
I’ve a ten year experience of ASHP air2air heating and the experience of being able to compare costs with buying solid fuel, manufactured heat logs, free firewood, electric 1kw in to1kw out. I can’t compare with oil, natural gas or propane of which I imagine only natural gas can win out.
Even natural gas can be better used by burning it in a power station, because the increase in efficiency of the heat pump means you get more heat into a house for a given volume of gas burnt by using it in a power station and then running a heat pump than you would by just burning it on site.
I've never heard that before but I can see how it might work out.

Is it very different between retrofitting to old housing and installing in new build that is optimised for the heat pump?

Thanks

Jonathan

A heat pump can be 500% efficient, so a power station and transmission system only need to be 20% efficient to match the maximum possible efficiency of local combustion - a power station is generally much more than 20% - 60% is typical (more if there is a local need for direct heating as well).

That means a heat pump only needs to be ~165% efficient, which would be considered a very poor efficiency indeed.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Moving

Post by [XAP]Bob »

In theory GS is better - because the temperature doesn’t significantly vary even a fairly short distance under the surface.
That allows for more efficient operation (ie you get closer to 500% for more of the year).

The installation costs are usually rather high, although with a new build it’s well worth considering.

As for efficiency between different buildings… there are a couple of things that can be done - radiator based heating systems are less ideally suited than wet underfloor systems (because UFH tends to run at lower temperatures anyway). But with people like mixergy making some interesting stratified tanks and intelligent control systems it’s certainly possible.

There is an area behind our garage that could reasonably accommodate some ASHP gear, and it would have easy access to the central heating system inside.
When our current boiler starts to fail I may well consider replacing it with a heat pump and a mixergy tank (and maybe get some panels up on a roof, though I don’t have any perfect space for that, the ridge line runs north/south).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Moving

Post by al_yrpal »

Looking at Rightmove lots of property for sale has obviously now gone following the best bit of the stamp duty holiday. What is left seems to be the hard to shift stuff. The stamp duty saved paid for our roof repairs.
The hot weather has largely halted the heavy work here, still lots of admin to sort out constantly having to prove our identity time and again. Must be a better way.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
francovendee
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Re: Moving

Post by francovendee »

Being nosy AL, do you have links to the area? Only thinking about when we moved here.

We knew only one person and it took us a long time to settle in and get a social network.
Maybe it was harder for us as we were foreigners who had trouble communicating.
My early days were a bit isolating to be honest, it took me over three years before my urge to return to England had faded.
I still love England but I'm quite happy to end my days in France.

With temperatures here in the middle 30's a British summer looks rather attractive though. :lol:
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al_yrpal
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Re: Moving

Post by al_yrpal »

Franco, the only person we knew was my daughter, an old apprentice pal near Exmouth and a cyclist pal in Exeter that I have toured with. I joined the Ramblers and the U3A at Cullompton and made some nice acquaintances there. But I have moved twice since then! Once to my new partners house and finally here to the new house Eileen and I bought together. I dont really know anyone here yet.
In the past, as a retiree, I found that volunteering bought me into lots of like minded people, some of whom became firm long lasting friends. But equally when you face challenges and you move away you find out quickly who your real friends actually are. I think it would be much more difficult for a Brit in France like yourself.
Lots of cricket here including an old blokes Wednesday evening match. Might get some whites... 8)

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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al_yrpal
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Re: Moving

Post by al_yrpal »

Latest problem...sorting the woodburner. Its a really good one a Clearview Pioneer 400. Highly controlable and you can trust it to stay in all night. But, we have sooty bits appearing and falling on top of the stove through the little gap between the registration plate and the flue pipe. The flue is lined and was apparently camera inspected a few months ago. To me, it sounds like the chimney was never swept well before the woodburners flue liner was installed. On top of that in the bedroom above our sitting room there is the smell of smoke and smoky deposits emanating from the top of the skirting. I installed a carbon monoxide alarm just in case. To me this sounds like a faulty liner. Anyway, after a bit of tail twisting with the original installer the camera man is coming early next week. This coincides with the arrival of painters doing the outside of the house. Onward and upward....

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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