Antibiotics in Australian meat.

[Tangled Metal]

Looked online and the only mega cattle or dairy farms are the ones on peta, animal lib or vegan websites. If they had proof surely show the UK farms and their locations but they don't seem to have them on the sites.

They do some great examples of pseudo academic reports on bad farming. One from peta made some pretty bold claims with a little number reference next to them. Those numbers referred to what seemed like independent, published research. I didn't see them all but the ones I did see were irrelevant to what the peta comment was.

For example peta stated dairy calves are removed from the mother's within 1 day of birth. Reference number 1 was given. Reading reference 1 you'll see that during their test they removed the calves in the artificial rearing sample set within 24 hours. Now I found no comment saying that is what dairy producers do. It's a designed experiment to prove a null hypothesis so they have to design the test to limit other factors not being looked at. It's not real production!!

It really annoys me when people start to research farming online, almost 70% (at a guess) of sites you'll find on the first few Google search pages will be campaigning groups with an agenda. Then you look at those sites and they present almost like a literature review at times. Only a little digging around and you'll see every link was chosen because they had sections which could be distorted, misinterpreted, misunderstood or is about an extreme situation for research purposes or such reason. A single research took calves from their mothers within 24 hours not dairy farmers was just one example.

I hate campaigning groups who can't argue their case honestly. If your arguments cannot stand on their own merits then you're not worth listening to. PETA is most definitely one such organisation.

However, it's kind of distressing how UK is becoming too far divorced from food production reality that any charlatan campaigning organisation can peddle lies, mistruths and distortions/outright lies as truth. A town person born and bred is likely to believe the worst often based on selection and distortion of honest academic research or often just photographs/videos of overseas farms which don't operate under UK farming and regulation system.

I do not know enough about this mega farm matter but a few years ago when it was discussed on IIRC countryfile it was based on no such farms existing in the UK but they might have visited an overseas mega farm to show what they are / could be. If there are any such farms I doubt there are many.

BTW if anyone says field or small herd farming has happier cows are talking it out if their derrieres I believe since happiness isn't capable of being measured with any accepted methodologies. What has been shown is that large herd size shows no indication of animal distress. Also, any farmer with cows will probably know they do queue to get into sheds when the weather's bad. It's not a place that's harmful to them or they'd not go there surely??

[simonineaston]

The thing is, Australia is not a place cows should really be... Australia is for 'roos & koalas really. We mess around with this stuff at our peril - I mean look at the cray-fish in our lovely rivers and streams. We should all catch cray-fish & eat them - they are delicous! The next best thing we can do is leave Australia out of the picture - except for Kylie obs who is fab!! And moving Kylie around the world has a quite small carbon footprint.

[Paulatic]

You are quite right about PETA and their methods. I sometimes think they can cause more harm than good.

BTW if anyone says field or small herd farming has happier cows are talking it out if their derrieres I believe since happiness isn't capable of being measured with any accepted methodologies. What has been shown is that large herd size shows no indication of animal distress. Also, any farmer with cows will probably know they do queue to get into sheds when the weather's bad. It's not a place that's harmful to them or they'd not go there surely??

Yes we can’t measure happiness but with cows we always worked on contentment. If an animal was healthy, producing milk or meat, they weren’t unsettled or bealing then we said they were happy.
The only farm I ever visited where the cattle were zero grazed ( that’s fresh grass cut by machine and carted to shed) was in the Cognac region of France back in the seventies. The outside temperature was so hot and unbearable, for us visiting northern students anyway, the cattle would have chosen to be in the cool indoors without question.
A good stockman uses ears as well as eyes.

[661-Pete]

Looked online and the only mega cattle or dairy farms are the ones on peta, animal lib or vegan websites. If they had proof surely show the UK farms and their locations but they don't seem to have them on the sites.

Eh? So, what you're imputing is, pictures like this one are photoshopped?

And see here. Note where I got the link from - not a source I usually cite. But I thought it'd chime better with your line of thinking....

And then there was the case, only a few days ago, of the pig farm in N. Yorkshire - now dropped as a supplier by several of the big supermarkets. 'Fake news' too?

You can diss all the campaign groups till you're red in the face. They won't go away, so long as cruel farming practices persist.

[Oldjohnw]

Nothing would ever happen without campaign or pressure groups, whether agricultural, poverty, criminal justice, immigration, or financial. Executives are rarely benign or innovative. They mostly only work when their feet are held to the fire.

[Jdsk]

You can diss all the campaign groups till you're red in the face. They won't go away, so long as cruel farming practices persist.

Nothing would ever happen without campaign or pressure groups, whether agricultural, poverty, criminal justice, immigration, or financial. Executives are rarely benign or innovative. They mostly only work when their feet are held to the fire.

It isn't possible to understand what's happening without continued independent scrutiny and publication.

And see Debs' and my comments on this government's attempts to avoid any scrutiny whatsoever.

Jonathan

[simonineaston]

Trouble is the line between fact and fiction is increasingly blurred, to the extent that these days, it is really quite a struggle to sift the wheat from the chaff... with internet access meaning that the many individuals wishing to mislead or simply blow their own trumpet, are able to post as readily as sober and serious commentators / activists.
So the onus is on the beholder to determine whether they're being fed accurate info or not - a task that a significant proportion of them are unwilling or unable to carry out!!
As Fraser once said, "We're doomed Captain Mainwaring, doomed..."

[Jdsk]

There's a lot of rubbish on the web, but I don't find it difficult to sift. (Now where's that discussion of what should be taught in schools.... ?)

And ease of publishing by less well-funded individuals and organisations is a great asset in campaigning and transparency in general.

Jonathan

[[XAP]Bob]

Looked online and the only mega cattle or dairy farms are the ones on peta, animal lib or vegan websites. If they had proof surely show the UK farms and their locations but they don't seem to have them on the sites.

Eh? So, what you're imputing is, pictures like this one are photoshopped?

And see here. Note where I got the link from - not a source I usually cite. But I thought it'd chime better with your line of thinking....

And then there was the case, only a few days ago, of the pig farm in N. Yorkshire - now dropped as a supplier by several of the big supermarkets. 'Fake news' too?

You can diss all the campaign groups till you're red in the face. They won't go away, so long as cruel farming practices persist.

I haven’t followed the source link, but without decent evidence of where that is, and any context we might be missing, then it’s just a picture. Is that meant to represent what’s wrong with UK, Us, or Australian farming?

Campaign groups often forget to point out that there are good (whatever they are campaigning about) available when there are.

[Psamathe]

....
Campaign groups often forget to point out that there are good (whatever they are campaigning about) available when there are.

I would agree but it can be difficult e.g. as many campaigning groups are resource limited and stopping or preventing the bad is seen as higher priority than encouraging the good (e.g. highlighting better sources might not stop worse sources where there are higher profits from the worse practices).

My impression in the UK is that there are/were several different schemes of varying reliability and some campaign groups found some incidents where one/some schemes missed some very bad practices e.g. in late 2000's the RSPCA Freedom Food was certifying farms that really shouldn't have been certified (e.g. the Norfolk Duck Production Company reported by Hillside Animal Refuge whose recorded video evidence was widely included in reports about such schemes on BBC & C4).

I can't remember full details (and being vegetarian now means I don't focus on such meat standards when doing my own shopping).

Ian

[661-Pete]

I would agree but it can be difficult e.g. as many campaigning groups are resource limited and stopping or preventing the bad is seen as higher priority than encouraging the good (e.g. highlighting better sources might not stop worse sources where there are higher profits from the worse practices).

It's also reported (sadly: I wish it were otherwise) that humane, organic livestock rearing can be as bad for the environment, specifically Climate Change, as intensive rearing.

Why? Basically because organically-raised livestock live longer than their intensively-raised siblings. For a cow, that means spending more time belching methane. I suppose that there are similar reasons for other animals. Anyway, organic chickens are the worst 'offenders' - whereas organic pigs perform rather better than intensive. So if you're a carnivore into organic food, best to focus on pork....

But it's meat itself - too much of it - which is the problem, I'm afraid. But no-one loves a preacher, so I'll leave it at that.

My impression in the UK is that there are/were several different schemes of varying reliability and some campaign groups found some incidents where one/some schemes missed some very bad practices e.g. in late 2000's the RSPCA Freedom Food was certifying farms that really shouldn't have been certified (e.g. the Norfolk Duck Production Company reported by Hillside Animal Refuge whose recorded video evidence was widely included in reports about such schemes on BBC & C4).

I can't remember full details (and being vegetarian now means I don't focus on such meat standards when doing my own shopping).

Some indeed can't be trusted. The 'Red Tractor' accreditation, supposed to represent good farming practice, has been discredited by the recent North Yorkshire piggery scandal. Apparently Sainsbury's dropped the logo some years ago. The other day I made a rare foray along the meat aisle at Tesco's (like you, not a section of the supermarket I frequent), and saw that there are plenty of Red Tractor logos on display. Tesco and others ought to follow Sainsbury's lead.

[Stevek76]

It's also reported (sadly: I wish it were otherwise) that humane, organic livestock rearing can be as bad for the environment, specifically Climate Change, as intensive rearing.

There's a great deal of 'it depends' with that though as the measurement is per kg meat.

I'd you're farming organically then there will be significantly lower meat per hectare per annum output and so the actual co2 impact really depends on consumer responses. If people are eating 'better but less' there should be a reduction. In intake is constant however then you'll obviously get increased land pressures, at worst case this might knock all the way down the chain via increased prices to rainforest deforestation.

[Paulatic]

My impression in the UK is that there are/were several different schemes of varying reliability and some campaign groups found some incidents where one/some schemes missed some very bad practices

I think the problem is schemes are industry led and financed. The inspectors get lazy/complacent. Trading standards were rare visitors and always with a few weeks notice to get the paperwork in order.
I think there needs to be a strong body similar to care commission and unannounced visits. I’ve reported farmers when I see them doing things contrary to their cross compliance. As the financial hit of that is diminishing that Avenue is closing.
As I had to work with many farmers and entrust them with the wintering of around 700 cows I learned early on not to be predictable with your visits and visiting times.

[al_yrpal]

A lot of South American beef is raised in feedlots the same system as used by many of our farmers producing milk. The animals never see a field. Inhumane practices also used widely in the EU. My hope us that freed of external rules we will become more humane to farm animals.

Al

I’ve covered quite a bit of the U.K. and I haven’t ever seen one of these SA/ USA type feed lots used here for dairy. Where are they and how many have you seen?

Only one here that I visited in Devon. But talking to the farmer he told me that in order to keep afloat most farms he knew about had to do it. He was supplying milk to Müller. He had 300 cows, and had a huge tank of mollases.

Al