Students university cheating

[Jdsk]

I would dispute that having a degree automatically brings about a higher income - IMHO the figures and their use are misleading - it’s wit and appropriate qualifications that secure higher incomes and higher lifetime earnings.

The data are freely available. Graduates earn more. The effect varies enormously across both subjects and jobs. It has decreased overall as more people have entered higher education.

The data might be available but it’s still unsound and misleading, it’s socially divisive too. It is the person’s appropriate use of their intellect that secures higher lifetime earnings and that intellect is there regardless of degree or not, ultimately people are paid by what they can do. Sadly many able people are now barred from applying from jobs because they don’t have a degree or one at a high enough honours rating.

The data on this aren't unsound or misleading.

What you're now discussing is not what the effect is, as described by those data. But whether the effect is useful or desirable or ethical.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Sadly many able people are now barred from applying from jobs because they don’t have a degree or one at a high enough honours rating.

"Now"? Requiring formal qualifications isn't something that's only just been introduced. And the increase in the fraction with degrees lessens that problem, if it is a problem.

But this connects to my highest priority for improvement: increasing the opportunities for entry and re-entry to higher education later in life. Not interfering with bits of the system that work well.

Jonathan

[geocycle]

Sadly many able people are now barred from applying from jobs because they don’t have a degree or one at a high enough honours rating.

I do agree with that part. I advised my son not to go to uni but he found he could not progress without a degree due to an arbitrary barrier in the firm he worked for. He now has a degree and is doing something much more interesting (in my view at least!).

[Carlton green]

Sadly many able people are now barred from applying from jobs because they don’t have a degree or one at a high enough honours rating.

I do agree with that part. I advised my son not to go to uni but he found he could not progress without a degree due to an arbitrary barrier in the firm he worked for. He now has a degree and is doing something much more interesting (in my view at least!).

I’ve a similar experience with one of my relatives. Their employer introduced a ban on further career progression without an MSc, a year’s lost income and a hefty bill for (not particularly good) Tuition allowed further career progression - that relative is young but it’ll take the best part of a decade to recoup what must be approaching a 50k loss.

[Tangled Metal]

Needing a degree for certain jobs was always the case. Try working as a resident engineer on a new road build without degree, chartered status and years of experience. Personally I'd want nothing else. No apprentice could do that job in the modern era.

I'm getting close to finishing my first half century. That means I'm not a baby boomer but perhaps gen x, I'm not sure. My generation was possibly halfway between my parents BBer generation and the modern generation in terms of university access. I left uni in difficult times to get a graduate job. I knew people 10 and 15 years further into their career and they walked into jobs. One into the NCB and the 10 year older walked into a Zambian copper belt job. Indeed the story was you got on a plane to South Africa and there were recruiters with signs asking for UK graduates looking for work. One guy I knew did that and retired at 50.

My generation had no NCB and we'd trained up locals so African mining concerns used local engineers and graduates taught by universities set up by locals sent over to graduate in the UK. My course no longer exists.

My point is that I wonder which generation posters on here are from. It seems that many could have been benefitted from times when they got the best of university education and now they're wanting it restricted to modern kids. Not sure I'm comfortable with that. But it's your right to an opinion. Glad it's not your decision though.

Personally I think it's been going downhill since they dropped the Latin or ancient Greek language requirements. I of course got my gcse in ancient Greek, I look down on those with only Latin!!!

[Carlton green]

Sadly many able people are now barred from applying from jobs because they don’t have a degree or one at a high enough honours rating.

"Now"? Requiring formal qualifications isn't something that's only just been introduced. And the increase in the fraction with degrees lessens that problem, if it is a problem.

But this connects to my highest priority for improvement: increasing the opportunities for entry and re-entry to higher education later in life. Not interfering with bits of the system that work well.

Jonathan

What is a formal qualification? Is it only a degree issued by some University or can it be something else? Other qualifications used to be acceptable to employers but no more is that the case.

The Open University used to be a large and wonderful organisation proving education to older and disadvantaged students. Sadly, due to the near automatic progress of Students from Sixth Form to University, the OU’s pool of Students has been robbed. Adult education (as in Mature Student) is, I think, particularly important and should be available to all at a level that matches their ability and at a price that is affordable. No elitism, just enablement of people to fulfil their potential in a responsible way.

[millimole]

The Open University used to be a large and wonderful organisation proving education to older and disadvantaged students.

I'm an OU graduate - I started in about 1990 in an effort to get a bit of paper proving I could 'do' French, and ended up with a Humanities Degree (French & Art History) about 8 years ago.
I'd got an HNC many, many years ago in a scientific discipline - arguably that was degree level, but I'm doubtful.
The OU was formerly the institution of the second chance for many people denied the chance of university earlier in life. Unfortunately, political dogma has, effectively, removed that opportunity now that the funding model for OU study has brought it in line with mainstream universities.
I gather that my combined HNC and professional qualifications would have barred me from - and many others - from getting the life changing experiences (and qualifications) that the OU offered to so many.
I can truly say that the OU changed my entire outlook on life and society.

[Tangled Metal]

There's lots of university distance and online courses now and for quite a few years before covid. OU had competition from many mainstream/trafitiona universities in much the same model. OU hasn't had a differentiation for years.

Back in the 70s when my mum was one of the earliest graduates it was the only place women and working men could get a degree level education. Back then it was still unusual for mothers to have paid jobs and even more unusual to be studying for a degree. After her graduation was assured she made the guardian newspaper it was that significant. Surprisingly studying at OU was a very feminist thing to do back then I reckon. I was just a very young child at the time so had no idea of the significance.

The thing is, arguing that there are too many people studying for degrees now is possibly a form of gatekeeping. If you get accepted and then work hard to get the degree you deserve to have been there. It's positive that people want education. I know a lot of people for whom school was something you did until you could go out and work or sign on. Degree wasn't in their scope.

More recently a young man got his QS degree studied part time over two years and walked from his £18k a year job to a nearly £30k a year job in a big city. He's a small town/ city boy who likes the big city so he's happy as he can be. Another man is working just 2 days a week and studying 3 days a week to make up for virtually failing school.

These might be the people you think should be doing apprenticeships but they're doing what they want and making it work. I think that's great and to be supported not argued against. Even if there's over 50% doing a degree.

Spain had over 50% at university for decades before it became a new Labour aim. It only meant graduates were doing the jobs a level students were doing here. It's just an adjustment but they got a more capable workforce.

[Jdsk]

It's positive that people want education. I know a lot of people for whom school was something you did until you could go out and work or sign on. Degree wasn't in their scope.

Yes.

But look at some of the posts above, where the expenditure is seen as a loss rather an investment.

Spain had over 50% at university for decades before it became a new Labour aim. It only meant graduates were doing the jobs a level students were doing here. It's just an adjustment but they got a more capable workforce.

And in the economic sectors where the UK can have comparative advantage the importance of higher education is massive. That's on top of the immediate effects on employment, wealth generation, and foreign earnings.

Jonathan

PS: I've never found that statement about a target of 50% going to university, only entering higher education. Anyone?

[Psamathe]

There's lots of university distance and online courses now and for quite a few years before covid. OU had competition from many mainstream/trafitiona universities in much the same model. OU hasn't had a differentiation for years.
.....

I've done several but now they are very expensive. They were OK some time back but Gov. changed the system of subsidy so now for me not something I do (just for sake of interest and understanding new subjects).

I have done quite a few Future Learn courses: they are good but most are aimed at a very beginner level. One fascinating very long course on Vector Borne Diseases and their control, very interesting, very detailed and goes into great depth. Future Learn language courses where you are a real beginner were excellent and I did most of the Spanish ones a few years back but most of those seem to have disappeared now.

Ian

[al_yrpal]

And look where higher education got Spain...nowhere in comparison to the UK? Skill, knowedge and the capability to inovate lies largely with our businesses not with Academia. Capital, enterprise, marketing skills too. iME in Engineering and Manufacturing recent graduates are hard work whilst proper apprentices (Rolls Royce standard) are immediately useful.

Al

[Jdsk]

Skill, knowedge and the capability to inovate lies largely with our businesses not with Academia.

What an extraordinary separation. In every sector that I know it's cooperation that delivers the innovation.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

iME in Engineering and Manufacturing recent graduates are hard work whilst proper apprentices (Rolls Royce standard) are immediately useful.

Rolls-Royce's past and current apprenticeships are rightly respected. And here's what they think about recruiting graduates:
https://careers.rolls-royce.com/united- ... grammes-uk

But what would they know?

This repeated setting of one route against another is completely pointless and counterproductive. Why can't we value both, and others?

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

Student apprentices have undertaken degrees as part of their apprenticeships since the 1950s, its nothing new, and it merely sets people with knowledge and skills as well as academic achievement as infinitely more immediately useful. Lord Baker was correct but academia largely shuns his efforts.

To my dismay two of my grandkids did degrees and achieved 2.1s. one works at an ice cream farm and the other screws computer bits together...what a waste!

Al

[PhilD28]

Student apprentices have undertaken degrees as part of their apprenticeships since the 1950s, its nothing new, and it merely sets people with knowledge and skills as well as academic achievement as infinitely more immediately useful. Lord Baker was correct but academia largely shuns his efforts.

To my dismay two of my grandkids did degrees and achieved 2.1s. one works at an ice cream farm and the other screws computer bits together...what a waste!

Al

This was exactly the route I took in the 1960's and has set me up for a successful engineering career.