The Italian Job

[Jdsk]

Gearboxes are antiquated and consigned to history synchro or otherwise.

Most parallel hybrids will probably continue to have some sort of mechanical ratio varying device.

Series hybrids don't need that in the same way. But range-extenders haven't caught on, and the window of opportunity might now be shrinking.

I'm expecting the vast majority of battery-only car-like EVs not to have anything of the sort.

Jonathan

[richardfm]

Hi MickF, Wake up boy, concentrate! A "Mk1 Vauxhall Viva"? Dat be "HA", then came a "HB", followed by a "HC", Vauxhall never used the Mk tag.
Then they did the Chevette (Yuk) tag, weak, to sound like "Chevrolet Light"! Why not go back to Victor, Velox, Wyvern, Cresta? MM

It was known as the Vauxhall Shove It by some people.

[thirdcrank]

Lets have the rust back too

I see Ziebart franchises are still available

https://www.ziebartworld.com/
(No connection except as the former owner of a car on which it didn't work forty years ago.)

[PDQ Mobile]

Gearboxes are antiquated and consigned to history synchro or otherwise.

It seems to me you overlook in your inimitable way a couple of things.
One is work!
A gearbox does WORK. Hard pulling work.
It may be the reason your hybrid is not plated to tow. The transmission is not strong enough to withstand long periods of sustained torque?
This is done, made lightweight in effect, in the interests of economy.
But it will bust if you stress it too hard.

Work and reliability are important to some of us.
I have an old tractor here, 70 plus years and counting. It works fine and the gears are as sweet and precise as the day it left the factory!

It has produced, in it's lifetime, a lot of food. Thousands of hours of ploughing etc.
There is nothing inherently inefficient about a well designed oil bath gearbox.

Or IHG!!! Though derailleur wins slightly on the efficiency side, but not on durability.
Pays your money ... etc.

[al_yrpal]

If I recall rightly several security guards or policemen were shot down during the robbery? Although the Mini scenes were somewhat charming with the Minis outwitting bumbling Italian cops I thought the shootings were horrid.

Al

[Mick F]

Our present car doesn't have a gearbox, as it's a hybrid

Yes, 1.5 hybrid.

...

"Normal" automatics have hesitation as the gears select, but a hybrid doesn't have a gearbox so no gears.

The Yaris 1.5 hybrid CVT has a... CVT. That's not a gearbox in the sense that it doesn't have discrete gears, but it is a mechanical equivalent for the same purpose: adjusting the speed and torque from an imperfect prime mover to match the requirements for moving the car relative to the surface of the earth. And whether they use gears or belts they take up space, and they have mass, and they waste power as heat because of their inherent efficiency.

Jonathan

Have a read at this.
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/?utm_source ... ForumLinks

[Mick F]

PS:
Yaris/Prius not allowed to tow eh?

You can fit five hefty adults inside, luggage for them all too, fit roof-bars and a big storage unit and a couple or three bikes too on the roof.

............. but you can't tow a small camping trailer?
Don't make me laugh.

[[XAP]Bob]

PS:
Yaris/Prius not allowed to tow eh?

You can fit five hefty adults inside, luggage for them all too, fit roof-bars and a big storage unit and a couple or three bikes too on the roof.

............. but you can't tow a small camping trailer?
Don't make me laugh.

It could, but since it isn't certified you'd be uninsured...

Really irritates me that the MG ZS EV isn't tow rated, but the structurally identical MG ZS is.

[Jdsk]

Our present car doesn't have a gearbox, as it's a hybrid

Yes, 1.5 hybrid.

...

"Normal" automatics have hesitation as the gears select, but a hybrid doesn't have a gearbox so no gears.

The Yaris 1.5 hybrid CVT has a... CVT. That's not a gearbox in the sense that it doesn't have discrete gears, but it is a mechanical equivalent for the same purpose: adjusting the speed and torque from an imperfect prime mover to match the requirements for moving the car relative to the surface of the earth. And whether they use gears or belts they take up space, and they have mass, and they waste power as heat because of their inherent efficiency.

Have a read at this.
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/?utm_source ... ForumLinks

Thats why I asked which model of Yaris hybrid you have... as I understand it some have the Prius C drivetrain and some the K120 or K3xx CVT. Which is yours, please?

Jonathan

PS: Both that planetary system and a belt-operated CVT take up space, add mass, and waste some power. And aren't necessary in pure EVs.

[Mick F]

Thats why I asked which model of Yaris hybrid you have... as I understand it some have the Prius C drivetrain and some the K120 or K3xx CVT. Which is yours, please?

PS: Both that planetary system and a belt-operated CVT take up space, add mass, and waste some power. And aren't necessary in pure EVs.

Dunno which, but I was under the impression that the Yaris Hybrid and the Prius were identical other than the size of the battery.

No drive belts or drive chains in either car.
No fan belt, no cam belt/chain, no alternator, no power steering pump belt.

2014 "new shape" Yaris Excel.

[Jdsk]

Thats why I asked which model of Yaris hybrid you have... as I understand it some have the Prius C drivetrain and some the K120 or K3xx CVT. Which is yours, please?

PS: Both that planetary system and a belt-operated CVT take up space, add mass, and waste some power. And aren't necessary in pure EVs.

Dunno which, but I was under the impression that the Yaris Hybrid and the Prius were identical other than the size of the battery.

2014 "new shape" Yaris Excel.

Got it. That's an XP130/ third generation Yaris. The hybrid version has the Prius C (Prius c) drive train with the P610 transaxle. That includes the planetary gear system.

Gearboxes are antiquated and consigned to history synchro or otherwise.

"Normal" automatics have hesitation as the gears select, but a hybrid doesn't have a gearbox so no gears.

Arrangement and assembly of the gear system in the P610 transaxle:



Jonathan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Vitz#Hybrid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Pr ... ifications
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Sy ... Generation

[[XAP]Bob]

Gearboxes are antiquated and consigned to history synchro or otherwise.

It seems to me you overlook in your inimitable way a couple of things.
One is work!
A gearbox does WORK. Hard pulling work.
It may be the reason your hybrid is not plated to tow. The transmission is not strong enough to withstand long periods of sustained torque?
This is done, made lightweight in effect, in the interests of economy.
But it will bust if you stress it too hard.

Work and reliability are important to some of us.
I have an old tractor here, 70 plus years and counting. It works fine and the gears are as sweet and precise as the day it left the factory!

It has produced, in it's lifetime, a lot of food. Thousands of hours of ploughing etc.
There is nothing inherently inefficient about a well designed oil bath gearbox.

Or IHG!!! Though derailleur wins slightly on the efficiency side, but not on durability.
Pays your money ... etc.

An electric drivetrain doesn't need a gearbox - because it doesn't suffer from the limitations of an ICE.

The only reason (motor vehicle) gearboxes exist is that infernal combustion engines can't do decent torque across a wide rev range, and are particularly rubbish at low revs. There were a few gearboxes in the era of steam power, but again you can get torque at zero/low revs, so you don't need a clutch and gearbox.

The torque provided by an electric motor is available across it's entire rev range, from zero to thousands of rpm, and both the torque and rev range can be designed to be whatever is needed for a job.

Your final transmission is completely independent of the power source, and yes, I am sure that lightweight transmission parts can't take silly torque, but that's like complaining that a moped can't plough the field - it's not meant to.

[PDQ Mobile]

Gearboxes are antiquated and consigned to history synchro or otherwise.

It seems to me you overlook in your inimitable way a couple of things.
One is work!
A gearbox does WORK. Hard pulling work.
It may be the reason your hybrid is not plated to tow. The transmission is not strong enough to withstand long periods of sustained torque?
This is done, made lightweight in effect, in the interests of economy.
But it will bust if you stress it too hard.

Work and reliability are important to some of us.
I have an old tractor here, 70 plus years and counting. It works fine and the gears are as sweet and precise as the day it left the factory!

It has produced, in it's lifetime, a lot of food. Thousands of hours of ploughing etc.
There is nothing inherently inefficient about a well designed oil bath gearbox.

Or IHG!!! Though derailleur wins slightly on the efficiency side, but not on durability.
Pays your money ... etc.

An electric drivetrain doesn't need a gearbox - because it doesn't suffer from the limitations of an ICE.

The only reason (motor vehicle) gearboxes exist is that infernal combustion engines can't do decent torque across a wide rev range, and are particularly rubbish at low revs. There were a few gearboxes in the era of steam power, but again you can get torque at zero/low revs, so you don't need a clutch and gearbox.

The torque provided by an electric motor is available across it's entire rev range, from zero to thousands of rpm, and both the torque and rev range can be designed to be whatever is needed for a job.

Your final transmission is completely independent of the power source, and yes, I am sure that lightweight transmission parts can't take silly torque, but that's like complaining that a moped can't plough the field - it's not meant to.

Of course one does not expect to plough with a moped.

And it was not my point.
Any reduction gearbox will increase torque at the output side and that is independent of power source.
There may well be instances where some reduction of output from an electric motor is an advantage. A smaller motor doing the work but more slowly. A rechargable drill often has two speeds by dint of a small gearbox.
Frictional losses in oil bath gears are not great

My point was more about durability really.
That remains something of an unknown for electric vehicles but I suspect the electronic complexity will not see them into the long term very well. We shall see.
The wider point is that while I really like electric as a motive power, trains (which we as a nation have still failed to fully electrify) draw power directly from an overhead wire are fantastic.
Feel that torque!!

Battery technology I am more sceptical of.
And like it or not 50% of UK leccy still generates CO2.
Throw in production energy costs in manufacture of what, if they follow current vehicle trends, have become throw away items, then the green credentials look rather more suspect, IMHO.

I have become, in old age, deeply mistrustful of the word "eco".

[Jdsk]

Throw in production energy costs in manufacture of what, if they follow current vehicle trends, have become throw away items, then the green credentials look rather more suspect, IMHO.

If the denominator is the individual "car" then lifetime carbon dioxide production of battery EVs is way below that of ICEs, including initial manufacture.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

The only reason (motor vehicle) gearboxes exist is that infernal combustion engines can't do decent torque across a wide rev range, and are particularly rubbish at low revs. There were a few gearboxes in the era of steam power, but again you can get torque at zero/low revs, so you don't need a clutch and gearbox.

The torque provided by an electric motor is available across it's entire rev range, from zero to thousands of rpm, and both the torque and rev range can be designed to be whatever is needed for a job.

Yes x2.

(Although there are some early ICE cars that didn't need torque matching, only speed matching.)

And as above current (!) hybrid ICE/ battery cars do usually need clutch and gear systems, it's only when you get to battery-only with electric drive that you can discard many of the obsolete transmission components.

Jonathan