The Italian Job

[[XAP]Bob]

I think we'll end up with "range extenders" being either aluminium air battery or similar swappable technology (fully recyclable, relatively low power but very decent energy density)

OR we'll just accept a 5-6 minute stop every few hours, that is more likely in many respects.

[Jdsk]

I think we'll end up with "range extenders" being either aluminium air battery or similar swappable technology (fully recyclable, relatively low power but very decent energy density)

Is that range-extending with an ICE still onboard? Or all battery, but rapidly swappable?

Thanks

OR we'll just accept a 5-6 minute stop every few hours, that is more likely in many respects.

Yes. I think this is mostly over for "cars"... except for the minor detail of widespread implementation!

Might be different for trucks, and many specific niches.

Jonathan

[PDQ Mobile]

Throw in production energy costs in manufacture of what, if they follow current vehicle trends, have become throw away items, then the green credentials look rather more suspect, IMHO.

If the denominator is the individual "car" then lifetime carbon dioxide production of battery EVs is way below that of ICEs, including initial manufacture.

Jonathan

So say you.
Yet as I write nuclear (only UK generated) and gas are making 50% of our energy.
The sun is shining strongly and wind is making 2.5 odd percent.

[Jdsk]

eg:



https://www.drax.com/press_release/ev-b ... ty-system/

and there are several studies giving the same general results.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Yet as I write nuclear (only UK generated) and gas are making 50% of our energy.
The sun is shining strongly and wind is making 2.5 odd percent.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

I was comparing battery cars with ICE cars. ICE cars are powered by fossil fuels and produce carbon dioxide.

And for contribution to national electricity production it would be useful to give averages and trend rather than a snapshot.

Jonathan

[PDQ Mobile]

Yet as I write nuclear (only UK generated) and gas are making 50% of our energy.
The sun is shining strongly and wind is making 2.5 odd percent.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

I was comparing battery cars with ICE cars. ICE cars are powered by fossil fuels and produce carbon dioxide.

And for contribution to national electricity production it would be useful to give averages and trend rather than a snapshot.

Jonathan

The point I am making, as if it wasn't obvious, is that a significant proportion of UK leccy comes from gas. 35%?
You are the man with WIKI resources, an easy look up?
It is by and large a fossil fuel and produces
CO2.
Throw in transmission and storage losses, the sum doesn't look so "green".
In my view.

It will be the future of transport I think, but it is not a panacea against all ills.
I certainly can't afford one either.

[Jdsk]

Yet as I write nuclear (only UK generated) and gas are making 50% of our energy.
The sun is shining strongly and wind is making 2.5 odd percent.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

I was comparing battery cars with ICE cars. ICE cars are powered by fossil fuels and produce carbon dioxide.

And for contribution to national electricity production it would be useful to give averages and trend rather than a snapshot.

The point I am making, as if it wasn't obvious, is that a significant proportion of UK leccy comes from gas. 35%?
You are the man with WIKI resources, an easy look up?
It is by and large a fossil fuel and produces
CO2.
Throw in transmission and storage losses, the sum doesn't look so "green".
In my view.

It will be the future of transport I think, but it is not a panacea against all ills.
I certainly can't afford one either.

Are we still comparing battery cars with ICE cars? Or something else?

The former produce less carbon dioxide across their lifetime, including manufacturing. Figures above,

Where did anyone suggest that anything was a "panacea against all ills"? Without that this is a straw man argument.

Jonathan

[kylecycler]

Just found myself kinda idly wondering what Michael Caine would make of this thread...

[Jdsk]

"You're a big planet, but you're in bad shape"?

Jonathan

[kylecycler]

"You're a big planet, but you're in bad shape"?

Jonathan

Well, as Michael Caine likes to say after he quotes a little-known fact, "Not many people know that."

When you need to fix yourself, first you need to know - and face up to - how bad a shape you're in.

[PDQ Mobile]

I'm not sure what point you're making.

I was comparing battery cars with ICE cars. ICE cars are powered by fossil fuels and produce carbon dioxide.

And for contribution to national electricity production it would be useful to give averages and trend rather than a snapshot.

The point I am making, as if it wasn't obvious, is that a significant proportion of UK leccy comes from gas. 35%?
You are the man with WIKI resources, an easy look up?
It is by and large a fossil fuel and produces
CO2.
Throw in transmission and storage losses, the sum doesn't look so "green".
In my view.

It will be the future of transport I think, but it is not a panacea against all ills.
I certainly can't afford one either.

Are we still comparing battery cars with ICE cars? Or something else?

The former produce less carbon dioxide across their lifetime, including manufacturing. Figures above,

Where did anyone suggest that anything was a "panacea against all ills"? Without that this is a straw man argument.

Jonathan

It's just a POV. Whether that's straw or not let others judge.

Backed up with a few simple and direct observations.
What is the "lifetime"?
Does a long "lived" vehicle score better?
There are a great many variables.

I don't like nuclear leccy much either, though like fossil fuels it can be seen as a necessary problem.
It (partially) solves your CO2 concerns but leaves problems elsewhere.

There ARE ways to be more green.
They are generally harder work and more restrictive than many are prepared to put up with.

[PDQ Mobile]

"You're a big planet, but you're in bad shape"?

Jonathan

Well, as Michael Caine likes to say after he quotes a little-known fact, "Not many people know that."

When you need to fix yourself, first you need to know - and face up to - how bad a shape you're in.

Yep.
But then I don't need lessons from him about carbon footprint!!

"You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off, not split the planet"

[Jdsk]

Backed up with a few simple and direct observations.
What is the "lifetime"?
Does a long "lived" vehicle score better?

Those are covered in the analysis cited above, and the inline picture which I posted illustrates the effect both in years and distance.

Jonathan

[PDQ Mobile]

Backed up with a few simple and direct observations.
What is the "lifetime"?
Does a long "lived" vehicle score better?

Those are covered in the analysis cited above, and the inline picture which I posted illustrates the effect both in years and distance.

Jonathan

Well I can only see "battery" figures.
(Not total manufacturing energy and transport from China or wherever.
And only up to 7 years.)

I have never owned a 7 year old or younger vehicle in my whole life.

I am not really apaid up member of the throw away society.
More of a"small is beautiful"( ) type.

[[XAP]Bob]

I think we'll end up with "range extenders" being either aluminium air battery or similar swappable technology (fully recyclable, relatively low power but very decent energy density)

Is that range-extending with an ICE still onboard? Or all battery, but rapidly swappable?

No ICE, just a rapidly swappable "second battery" - aluminium air has impressive energy density, but isn't as rechargeable as LiIon. The product can however be perfectly recycled back into a new pack - the energy cost isn't great, but it's a pretty good, and easily achievable solution to the perceived issue.

OR we'll just accept a 5-6 minute stop every few hours, that is more likely in many respects.

Yes. I think this is mostly over for "cars"... except for the minor detail of widespread implementation!

The new owners of the electric highway are replacing all the existing pumps in the next 12 months, and expanding. The new station just up the road for me has half a dozen 350kW general chargers and half a dozen Telsa units.

Might be different for trucks, and many specific niches.

Potentially, but I don't think so. There are cases where the aluminium air battery might be more attractive, but there are very few niches that would need more than that (and that wouldn't be better served by some other option - like a truck with a battery swap system).