Space

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Space

Post by Tangled Metal »

Oil palm tree plantations are an ecological disaster of their own. Monocultures like palm oil plantations are never good. If you're saying those plantations are a good alternative to rainforest i reckon you're not right. I'm sure Ben will know more.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Space

Post by Vorpal »

Tangled Metal wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 12:58pm Oil palm tree plantations are an ecological disaster of their own. Monocultures like palm oil plantations are never good. If you're saying those plantations are a good alternative to rainforest i reckon you're not right. I'm sure Ben will know more.
No, I was definitely *not* suggesting that they are a good alternative. I was mainly responding to Ben saying that soil had poor nutrients & that farmers simply moved on, leaving waste. That happens in some places, but not all.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Space

Post by Psamathe »

Whilst I'm strongly behind research into space, I don't see private tourism as a particularly useful means to achieve this. I see the change or clarification about getting astronaut "wings" as a good thing in that now the parasitic tax avoiders wont be getting their egos massaged by calling themselves "astronaut" at their tax-haven parties.

I've never understood why private is better/cheaper than Government run. Nothing wrong with sub-contracting aspects but wholesale provision of the entire service to a single company makes the "customer" vulnerable. Competition can be a pseudo-justification to quell objections - how has "competition" helped me get a better cheaper water provision? or how does having the choice between BT or BT for my landline/internet mean I get a better service?

Bezos said it all when he thanked Amazon employees and customers for paying for his jolly; we have record use of food banks, people sleeping on the streets, whilst his employees have to pee in bottles due to inadequate toilet breaks, etc yet his companies are paying minimal tax whilst he spaffs it on his ego.

(I'm a bit angry after having just seen local planning committee approve a development that would normally never get anywhere except for untruths from applicant and likely behind the scenes "direction")

Ian
Oldjohnw
Posts: 7764
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Space

Post by Oldjohnw »

Psamathe wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 1:09pm
Bezos said it all when he thanked Amazon employees and customers for paying for his jolly; we have record use of food banks, people sleeping on the streets, whilst his employees have to pee in bottles due to inadequate toilet breaks, etc yet his companies are paying minimal tax whilst he spaffs it on his ego.

(I'm a bit angry after having just seen local planning committee approve a development that would normally never get anywhere except for untruths from applicant and likely behind the scenes "direction")

Ian
In the 19thC exploited villagers used to club together and erect a monument to the oppressive landowner. One of the most startling is that built by Highland villagers around Goldspie for the Duke of Sutherland who also built Dunrobin Castle.

There is an economic system where people are persuaded that in return for their labour they will get enough money to live on and live happy and fulfilled lives. They then discover that what they are really doing is making a few people rich beyond belief. I think it is called capitalism.
John
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Space

Post by reohn2 »

For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5I
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Space

Post by thirdcrank »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:24pm For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5I
Good to see you back :D
Oldjohnw
Posts: 7764
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Space

Post by Oldjohnw »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:24pm For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5I
Powerful stuff and I am delighted to see you resurface. Welcome! How is your motorbike?
John
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Space

Post by francovendee »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:24pm For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5I
Another here who's glad to see you back. :)
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Space

Post by slowster »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:24pm For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5I
Nice to hear from you again.

It is a shame that the likes of Bezos, Musk and Branson do not use their wealth and influence to make the sort of philanthropic contributions to society that Bill and Melinda Gates do.
Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: Space

Post by Stradageek »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:24pm For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5
Excellent stuff, though, as I've mentioned before, I prefer 'Parasite Class' to the term 'Elite'

I also like his link between neoliberalism and lack of empathy. Having just read Ece Temelkuran's 'How to lose a country - The seven steps from democracy to dictatorship', Ece adds, "Who is it that can draw the red line between the normal antipathy that's required to get by in these [neoliberal] times and the excessive antipathy [or should that be apathy] that turns a human into a fascist?"

To address the 'Private industry is more efficient' argument requires more time. Suffice it to say that the 'unfettered capitalism works best' argument assumes no monopolies, no cartels, and accurate and freely available information about every aspect of any transaction. I always like to cite the massive loan that Thames Water took out (and that Thames Water users are paying for) despite having adequate funds for all their commitments. The loan was used to pay for shareholder and executive bonuses. If I object I can always buy my water from.........?
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Space

Post by Vorpal »

Psamathe wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 1:09pm Whilst I'm strongly behind research into space, I don't see private tourism as a particularly useful means to achieve this. I see the change or clarification about getting astronaut "wings" as a good thing in that now the parasitic tax avoiders wont be getting their egos massaged by calling themselves "astronaut" at their tax-haven parties.

I've never understood why private is better/cheaper than Government run. Nothing wrong with sub-contracting aspects but wholesale provision of the entire service to a single company makes the "customer" vulnerable. Competition can be a pseudo-justification to quell objections - how has "competition" helped me get a better cheaper water provision? or how does having the choice between BT or BT for my landline/internet mean I get a better service?

I don't think private space tourism has any significant benefit.

Private investment isn't better or cheaper than government, and for some things, is worse.

However... the economic system, as it currently operates, is driven partly by competition. Rich people battling to get into space is a way to promote development of new technology & simplify space travel. It is arguably a less effective way, but the governments of the US and UK like it because it requires less direct investment on their part. It also does a good PR job for capitalism, individualism, and other values that are shared/promoted by both the Tories, and most US American leaders.

The biggest problem with it is of course that private companies will go to extreme lengths to protect their investments & intellectual property (IP), while governments have the ability, as NASA did for many years, to release IP for industrial use. It also doesn't fix any of the previously mentioned issues of exploitation, quality, lost tax, monopolies, etc.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Oldjohnw
Posts: 7764
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Space

Post by Oldjohnw »

Once upon a time a billionaire’s vanity project involved building museums, libraries, parks and churches.
John
sjs
Posts: 1306
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 10:08pm
Location: Hitchin

Re: Space

Post by sjs »

thirdcrank wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:30pm
reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:24pm For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5I
Good to see you back :D
Me too
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Space

Post by Psamathe »

slowster wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 9:47pm .....
It is a shame that the likes of Bezos, Musk and Branson do not use their wealth and influence to make the sort of philanthropic contributions to society that Bill and Melinda Gates do.
I think I'd be a lot less critical of the mega wealthy getting their jollies with a few moments near space if they got their mega wealth after paying a reasonable tax rate rather than through not paying tax. So much wealth from not paying a reasonable tax rate makes them parasites rather than anybody deserving any admiration.

Ian
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Space

Post by [XAP]Bob »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2021, 7:24pm For those who give credence to the egotistical hyper rich tax dodging morons whose jollies include five minute space journeys on the pretext of furtherment of humanity:- https://youtu.be/JZkXwrtxO5I
Sorry - I fail to see the relevance of that video.

I agree with the gentleman that the current societal model is completely snafu, fubar...

None of that changes the fact that Musk is certainly acting towards a larger goal, Beardy much less so, Baldy not at all.

It's a different problem to those which the Gates' foundation is tackling, but that's ok.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Post Reply