It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

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simonineaston
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It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by simonineaston »

See here a movie that explains exactly why riding up hills is easier than we thought (I wish...) It's full of interesting tips and pictureskew clips of fully-loaded tourers in exotic locations. The content is a curious mix of stating the obvious ("mountain roads are often free from cars, less populated and more wild...") and cycling maths, but worth a watch if you have a spare ten minutes.
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by peetee »

Seems to me that video is aimed at those who are happy to hand over responsibility as to what bike suits them to the staff of a bike shop and have never taken it upon themselves to think too hard about any shortcomings in their riding experiences since purchasing their bike.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by [XAP]Bob »

As Mr Merckx said:

"In never gets easier, you just get faster"
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Jdsk
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks for posting. Definitely worth watching.

Good list of the factors. Physics was mostly OK.

But the title seems calculated (!) to create adverse reaction, and of course he denies it.

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colin54
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by colin54 »

Thanks for the link Simon, I found it an informative video showing some of the science behind climbing, and a general overview of how to analyse and if necessary modify gearing .
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kylecycler
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by kylecycler »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 10:49am As Mr Merckx said:

"In never gets easier, you just get faster"
Or conversely, it never gets harder, you just get slower! :)

Seriously, I watched the video last night and to some extent that's the point he's trying to make - you can make a climb like riding on the level provided you use low enough gears, or not if you don't. What's missing when climbing is the chance of any recovery periods (unless you stop, of course, but then it's hard to start again) - the coasting or lower effort periods that you get on flatter terrain - but you factor that in to your effort, i.e. pace yourself accordingly.

It's like riding loaded vs. unloaded - you can expend no more effort loaded than unloaded provided you just go slower, as well as again using lower gearing. That might seem obvious but I'm not sure it is.

Alee's videos are thought-provoking - a bit click-baity sometimes but there's real substance to them and you always learn something.
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by Mike Sales »

kylecycler wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 12:10pm What's missing when climbing is the chance of any recovery periods (unless you stop, of course, but then it's hard to start again) - the coasting or lower effort periods that you get on flatter terrain - but you factor that in to your effort, i.e. pace yourself accordingly.

Not on all climbs. Some are not at a steady gradient, but ease up before steepening again.
One which comes to mind is the old road up the Ogwen valley above Bethesda in Gwynedd. Telford's A5 is well graded fo coaches, but the old road saves all the height gain for the end, where it rises in three distinct,very steep pitches, with a rest between.
Many older roads are like this, I guess to fit the terrain and avoid too much earth moving.
It used to be my regular evening run. Up the old road, and then a glorious downhill run home on the A5.
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by PH »

kylecycler wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 12:10pm Alee's videos are thought-provoking - a bit click-baity sometimes but there's real substance to them and you always learn something.
I think the opposite, I used to be a bit of a fan but now think he's run out of things to say, yet needs to fill the channel with something as it's his income. The last few have just been stating the obvious but dressed up for the clicks, they're all based on apps and info that's been around a long time, the rest is just spin, good luck to him. If I'm bored I might watch another, they usually contain nice scenery if nothing else.
As for hills being as easy, it's a nonsense. Just use the same data he does and see how much more energy is required to travel 1 km flat or 1 km at a 5%. The same output for a longer period = harder. He touches on, but offers no figures for momentum, it's a huge difference, just see how far you roll from a single pedal revolution. This is what makes cycling so efficient and is very much dependent on gradient.
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kylecycler
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by kylecycler »

Mike Sales wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 12:20pm
kylecycler wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 12:10pm What's missing when climbing is the chance of any recovery periods (unless you stop, of course, but then it's hard to start again) - the coasting or lower effort periods that you get on flatter terrain - but you factor that in to your effort, i.e. pace yourself accordingly.

Not on all climbs. Some are not at a steady gradient, but ease up before steepening again.
One which comes to mind is the old road up the Ogwen valley above Bethesda in Gwynedd. Telford's A5 is well graded for coaches, but the old road saves all the height gain for the end, where it rises in three distinct, very steep pitches, with a rest between.
Many older roads are like this, I guess to fit the terrain and avoid too much earth moving.
It used to be my regular evening run. Up the old road, and then a glorious downhill run home on the A5.
Makes you wonder, though, if the hardest climbs are the ones that just go up and up with the same gradient, even if it's not especially steep. Three years ago I went round the Assynt peninsula in Sutherland from Achmelvich to Kylesku. IIRC the hardest climb was the first one - not as steep as the subsequent ones - Mark Beaumont the endurance cyclist calls Assynt 'the shark's teeth' - but relentless and harder than the rest because the gradient was constant for so long. After that it was all brutal climbs and scary descents, but wonderful.

I was on a lightly loaded (maybe 20kg all-in) Carrera Subway, my lowest gear was 28F, 32R - if I'd been carrying more weight I'd have put a 34T on the back. I've often wondered what Assynt would be like on a road bike with a 50/34 chainset and an 11-28 cassette. A lot faster, no doubt, of course, but maybe not necessarily any less hard. I think that was partly the point of Alee's video.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by [XAP]Bob »

PH wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 12:29pm
kylecycler wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 12:10pm Alee's videos are thought-provoking - a bit click-baity sometimes but there's real substance to them and you always learn something.
I think the opposite, I used to be a bit of a fan but now think he's run out of things to say, yet needs to fill the channel with something as it's his income. The last few have just been stating the obvious but dressed up for the clicks, they're all based on apps and info that's been around a long time, the rest is just spin, good luck to him. If I'm bored I might watch another, they usually contain nice scenery if nothing else.
As for hills being as easy, it's a nonsense. Just use the same data he does and see how much more energy is required to travel 1 km flat or 1 km at a 5%. The same output for a longer period = harder. He touches on, but offers no figures for momentum, it's a huge difference, just see how far you roll from a single pedal revolution. This is what makes cycling so efficient and is very much dependent on gradient.
It's no harder, you just don't go as far.

That's the point, not that you can ride uphill as fast as you can on the flat, but that you can go uphill without it having to be harder, it might take longer.
The counterpoint of course is that in your ideal world there would be no downhills either.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
freeflow
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by freeflow »

SO basically if you cycle at a power output that doesn't exceed your aerobic power level, keep up a reasonable cadence to avoid stalling, and can balance the bike at the resulting speed hills are just a doable as the flat. A lesson I learned a long long long time ago. Which is why my bikes have gearing from 15 to 95 gear inches.
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by PH »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 1:42pm It's no harder, you just don't go as far.
So what's the next video? A 100 mile ride is no harder than a 10 mile one?
The counterpoint of course is that in your ideal world there would be no downhills either.
No, in my world you accept the rough with the smooth, the hard with the easy.
Last edited by PH on 23 Jul 2021, 1:49pm, edited 1 time in total.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Are you claiming that all hundred miles rides are harder than all ten mile rides?

People think that hills are hard, when in reality they just have inappropriate equipment...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by PH »

Has anyone who believes it's no harder got an explanation for the popularity of E-Bikes?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: It's official - cycling up hills is now easy ;-)

Post by [XAP]Bob »

PH wrote: 23 Jul 2021, 1:53pm Has anyone who believes it's no harder got an explanation for the popularity of E-Bikes?
Because people don't want to slow down going up hills, and because many people don't actually want to put any effort in.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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