Electric everything.

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mjr
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by mjr »

Hellhound wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 6:22pm ICEs give pleasure to millions.You either get it or don't.Not everyone wants to drive a tiny little rollerskate with a bland exterior and even blander interior.
I think that's overestimating wildly and cars are a tool for most, with combustion engines an encumbrance for many.

If cars excited many people in and of themselves, Top Gear would have found a big audience before adding lots of challenges and celebrity features. Top Gear and even the subscription Grand Tour still get more viewers than the more car-centred Fifth Gear.

I suspect Top Gear could quietly and slowly go electric or possibly even change mode of transport entirely without losing many viewers, if done cleverly.
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Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Hellhound wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 6:22pm
Jdsk wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 3:42pm But why would it be better to stay with fossil fuels and ICEs for "cars", please?
Because there are 1000s,possibly millions of people who like ICEs?!
Thanks

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

simonineaston wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 11:39am
Without fossil fuels presumably this is going to be produced from increased Nuclear capacity
This was perfectly possible until the 'green' activists put the kybosh on the perceived bogeyman of nuclear power back in the '80s (Argghhh, we can't see it, smell it, touch it or feel it - it must be dangerous"!) and now it's too late... Adoption of nuclear power generation would have given us breathing space to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels in a measured way, but we've now missed that boat, hence the unseemly & illogical scrabble to find more power from unsuitable sources. Or in the case of the UK government, a failure to manage to do even that!
Quite. Just look at France's co2/head figures. Even if Chernobyl is included nuclear fission has the lowest death rate per energy unit generated. Such assessments are arguably generous to wind & solar as well given, to date, they cannot really be considered 'complete' sources, typically backed up by gas.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Stevek76
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

Jdsk wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 4:50pm
Oldjohnw wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 4:48pm Basically, I don’t think we want every ICE vehicle replaced by an EV. As long as I am not one of those who have to give up my car!
But there is also a trope that changing from ICE to BEV isn't worth it because it doesn't solve "the problem" all by itself. That's mostly a straw man argument
It's not really a strawman, more a response provoked by governments and councils far too keen on seeing EVs as a silver bullet even though they only partially solve one or two of the many many problems cars cause.

Can see this even in the recent decarbonisation plan which is far too reliant upon 'tech make it all better' and not on actual real known solutions, most of which actually require some political effort.
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Maillot Rouge
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Maillot Rouge »

Jdsk wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 3:42pm
Maillot Rouge wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 8:10pm Electric vehicles won’t take over in my lifetime.It is simply not viable.We might see more Ecars but everything else will stay as it is.
E-HGVs?
E-Ocean Liners?
E-Aeroplanes?
Not in this Century.Not viable.E-cars aren’t the future but merely a stepping stone to make it look like we’re doing something.It would be better to stay with petrol and diesel until a reliable long term replacement is found.
No technology is ever "the future" in the sense that something different won't replace it.

But why would it be better to stay with fossil fuels and ICEs for "cars", please?

Thanks

Jonathan
Because no viable alternative is available.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Oldjohnw »

Hellhound wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 6:22pm
Jdsk wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 3:42pm But why would it be better to stay with fossil fuels and ICEs for "cars", please?
Thanks
Jonathan
Because there are 1000s,possibly millions of people who like ICEs?!
I'm one of them.I like the sound,the feel etc.
I've driven EVs and an electric superbike.They are horrible souless things.Brilliant acceleration,I concede that,but absolutely no pleasure or feel to it!It's just boring.No gearbox,clutch or sound of an engine at 10,000rpm.It's pointless.Some people ride/drive for pleasure first and as a necessity second.
ICEs give pleasure to millions.You either get it or don't.Not everyone wants to drive a tiny little rollerskate with a bland exterior and even blander interior.
I assume you are aware of the environmental consequences of the ICE?
John
francovendee
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by francovendee »

Cost has been mentioned, battery cars are more expensive to buy and less expensive to run?
At present the government is encouraging the take up of EV's. If in the long term EV's are in the majority then will the government look at ways to raise the missing fuel tax?
I understand pricing structure for charging points is a bit of a wild west. One chap interviewed on Radio 4 said it cost him £80 to charge his car, His comment was it was dearer than filling with petrol.

My SIL has just got his first EV and he loves it.
As soon as France comes off the UK's amber+ list I'll pay a visit and have a drive. :D
Oldjohnw
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Oldjohnw »

francovendee wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 7:59am Cost has been mentioned, battery cars are more expensive to buy and less expensive to run?
At present the government is encouraging the take up of EV's. If in the long term EV's are in the majority then will the government look at ways to raise the missing fuel tax?
I understand pricing structure for charging points is a bit of a wild west. One chap interviewed on Radio 4 said it cost him £80 to charge his car, His comment was it was dearer than filling with petrol.

My SIL has just got his first EV and he loves it.
As soon as France comes off the UK's amber+ list I'll pay a visit and have a drive. :D
Many recognise the running cost/buying cost argument. The difficulty is that for many a £10 purchase is achievable. A £30k purchase is not.

You are right about revenue loss. In the Uk it has been historically high and the loss will be significant so one has to assume that government will need an alternative revenue without it sounding like increasing taxes.
John
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Oldjohnw wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 5:39pm
mjr wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 5:25pm
Oldjohnw wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 4:48pm Basically, I don’t think we want every ICE vehicle replaced by an EV. As long as I am not one of those who have to give up my car!
Would I hire an electric car? Probably. Can I hire one? It looks like Enterprise hire them out in the UK, but only Teslas (which I suspect are expensive) and not in my town. While Sixt hire them out in other countries but not the UK.
I would also happily give up mine when I move so long as public transport meets my needs. Family camping might be difficult and visiting my son. I would happily hire for that. Mrs Ojw would need a new back.
Exactly... apart from the shift of prime mover in like for like vehicles we're already seeing, and need to see, a whole raft of other changes including less personal ownership.

There was a very interesting and constructive discussion of this in the forum... I came to the conclusion that ease of use was the critical factor... how you get and return the vehicle and the hassle of ordering etc. And of course you could get the vehicle you need for each session... many car share systems have a few vans in the fleet.

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 31 Jul 2021, 10:19am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hellhound
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Hellhound »

mjr wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 6:31pm
Hellhound wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 6:22pm ICEs give pleasure to millions.You either get it or don't.Not everyone wants to drive a tiny little rollerskate with a bland exterior and even blander interior.
I think that's overestimating wildly and cars are a tool for most, with combustion engines an encumbrance for many.
If cars excited many people in and of themselves, Top Gear would have found a big audience before adding lots of challenges and celebrity features. Top Gear and even the subscription Grand Tour still get more viewers than the more car-centred Fifth Gear.
I suspect Top Gear could quietly and slowly go electric or possibly even change mode of transport entirely without losing many viewers, if done cleverly.
The love of cars for pleasure has been around a lot longer than Top Gear :lol: :lol: :roll: I think you're overestimating wildly what influence Top Gear has on the car buying public!
Oldjohnw wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 6:40am
Hellhound wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 6:22pm
Jdsk wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 3:42pm But why would it be better to stay with fossil fuels and ICEs for "cars", please?
Thanks
Jonathan
Because there are 1000s,possibly millions of people who like ICEs?!
I'm one of them.I like the sound,the feel etc.
I've driven EVs and an electric superbike.They are horrible souless things.Brilliant acceleration,I concede that,but absolutely no pleasure or feel to it!It's just boring.No gearbox,clutch or sound of an engine at 10,000rpm.It's pointless.Some people ride/drive for pleasure first and as a necessity second.
ICEs give pleasure to millions.You either get it or don't.Not everyone wants to drive a tiny little rollerskate with a bland exterior and even blander interior.
I assume you are aware of the environmental consequences of the ICE?
Yes.
I don't see your point?
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Oldjohnw wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 8:04am
francovendee wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 7:59am Cost has been mentioned, battery cars are more expensive to buy and less expensive to run?
At present the government is encouraging the take up of EV's. If in the long term EV's are in the majority then will the government look at ways to raise the missing fuel tax?
I understand pricing structure for charging points is a bit of a wild west. One chap interviewed on Radio 4 said it cost him £80 to charge his car, His comment was it was dearer than filling with petrol.

My SIL has just got his first EV and he loves it.
As soon as France comes off the UK's amber+ list I'll pay a visit and have a drive. :D
Many recognise the running cost/buying cost argument. The difficulty is that for many a £10 purchase is achievable. A £30k purchase is not.

You are right about revenue loss. In the Uk it has been historically high and the loss will be significant so one has to assume that government will need an alternative revenue without it sounding like increasing taxes.
Unlike "engineering" barriers this is a big one... incentives to switch, how EV use will be taxed after the switch, and the effects on public revenue.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Maillot Rouge wrote: 31 Jul 2021, 12:49am
Jdsk wrote: 30 Jul 2021, 3:42pm
Maillot Rouge wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 8:10pm Electric vehicles won’t take over in my lifetime.It is simply not viable.We might see more Ecars but everything else will stay as it is.
E-HGVs?
E-Ocean Liners?
E-Aeroplanes?
Not in this Century.Not viable.E-cars aren’t the future but merely a stepping stone to make it look like we’re doing something.It would be better to stay with petrol and diesel until a reliable long term replacement is found.
No technology is ever "the future" in the sense that something different won't replace it.

But why would it be better to stay with fossil fuels and ICEs for "cars", please?
Because no viable alternative is available.
In what ways are are ICE "cars" "viable" and BEV "cars" not, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by al_yrpal »

When our little car finally goes I will go for a S/H electric job for all local car journeys. But I am keeping a low milage petrol car for travelling long distances and see how things develop.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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Mick F
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Mick F »

Al, I think that's the way people will consider it too.
Battery for local stuff, and a "normal" car for long distances.

Battery vehicles aren't viable yet. Yes, they have their place, but there's no way we would want one as yet.

We at least have a drive so we can charge at home, but many people park on the street in towns and cities, so they will have to go out somewhere to charge up.

Far too much hassle unless the milage per charge goes up to more than 300miles ish.
I doubt we'd get 100miles round here on any of the reasonably priced battery cars.

Our daughter and grandson live 50miles away. We could get there, but she has no drive or off-road parking, so we'd have to go and charge up at a local charge point before being able to get home.

I do not believe the mileage claims, just like I don't believe the fuel consumption figures for ICE cars. Chuck in all the hills on a journey, and fuel consumption rockets.
Mick F. Cornwall
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al_yrpal
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by al_yrpal »

There speaks a practical man who like me has been responsible for making sure 'things' actually work unlike the self proclaimed Google experts we all have to suffer. :wink:

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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